I don’t think this is EEE, I think this is a chance for meta to dominate the narrative by drowning us out with algorithmically curated censorship, distractions, hatred, outrage etc. I would join threads if I want threads, I would be on Reddit if I want corporate influence.
The mastodon post for the same server admins admitting to allow Meta thanks @BrikoX and @Melco
Thanks lunar for articulating my central point better than I could.
Most of my primary content was within the comment section scattered so I’ll try to put it up here and edit more as i go. I was worried I’d butcher things so I avoided updating my post. Ignore the mess
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EEE - I don’t want to talk specifically about this. Many others are, and you can talk with them about it.
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Privacy - My views on privacy is that lemmy is already fully public and facebook merging into it probably wont reduce your lemmy privacy in any meaningful way. Ignoring lemmy, your privacy is already fully breached in ways I’m not going to explain here.
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People keep making blind claims that facebook/meta can’t use their algorithms to interact with us, so i will explain. For the record I know most of this effects mastodon directly, and not so much lemmy.
Threads will be able to control what gets minimised and maximised based on whatever secret algorithms they use. These end results are known to people that want to know, it’s how our parents and grandparents, became increasingly detached from reality. If facebook/meta wants to censor their users, they will, if they want to promote hate against LGBTQs then they will. Those users will then interact with our users, slowly shifting our conversations and the overall culture of lemmy into the same cesspool that is facebook.
Secondly, the content of threads will be selected by a relatively massive userbase which will drown out our content if we stay federated. Of course that content will be optimised by their algorithm, thus influencing fediverse content.
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Now onto the principle matter. FACEBOOK IS EVIL, like genocidal evil, a propaganda arm of the empire evil. They have a heavily proven track record. “Wait and see”? There is no need to ignore facebook/metas criminal record.
The admins here should have clearly stated their intent but have been deafeningly silent. People are asking for clarification or in my case, acting because of a clear lack of action.
Other posts are talking about this and I will assume you have been reading them.
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pjhenry is a troll that ignores what people actually say, he focuses on his intentional misunderstandings and straw-men, just stop feeding the troll guys, he only wants to fight over nothing. He only acts in bad faith.
Thank you for pointing out that this is so much worse than just EEE. Meta has a long history of social and political engineering, and deliberately creating a toxic environment that turned all of our parents and grandparents into deranged conspiracy theorists. They don’t just let hate thrive on their platform, they artificially inflate it in the name of engagement and profit.
I see no reason to assume they won’t do all of this again, and should they do it all again it’s going to impact the entire Fediverse. Even if you just stick to instances that block Meta, if you’re federating with instances that aren’t, the toxic environment Meta is likely to build will come back to you. If the majority of instances fail to block them, I can’t bear to stay here and watch what has become the internet’s most healthy and vibrant community rot from the inside.
I honestly don’t understand why this is even a debate. If even a fraction of the shit meta has pulled was done by a smaller Fediverse instance, we all wouldn’t hesitate to defederate from them.
And to those of you who justify Threads because Meta is somehow the lesser of two evils compared to Twitter, please remember that while Twitter is owned by a raging and incompetent manchild, Meta has eroded democracies and played a major role in a genocide. Don’t fucking support these murderers. Meta is more than happy to spread even more hatred and killing in the world if it boosts their profits.
I’m gonna need to see an argument on how Threads’ toxicity will reach places that are at least once removed. You can’t just use it as evidence when it’s not even clear it would happen. It’s like saying this community is already tainted because there are folks who also have Instagram accounts. If it’s not via people spreading the toxicity, I’m all ears to hear your reasoning. Cause it’s far from just being obvious.
What are you even arguing anyway? You’re saying defederating Threads isn’t even enough. There’s no sign they’ll even federate beyond platforms of similar concept (micro logging as opposed to link sharing/exchange).
Are you just saying by simply existing, if everyone doesn’t defederate them, the fediverse dies?
Your reply is a perfect example of how threads actions are causing toxicity in lemmy.world.
edit: Id just like to point out that at no point does he respond about meta being evil and unworthy to associate with, which is the important part he should be talking about.
I’d argue your attacking of other people shows that Threads isn’t the reason behind people being toxic. Folks like you simply exist.
Man… I just got here.
It’s all getting a bit Judean People’s Front around here. I know there’s a generally leftist userbase, but do we have to do this?
That’s less about defederating with Meta. Meta are the Romans. It’s about people defederating with anyone who federates with Meta.
This grand standing and these purity tests about threads are sickening.
I’m not surprised, but disappointed. And I’m even tired to talk about it. It’s just so fucking dumb.
Do the fosstodon people have a Lemmy instance?
Aaaaand the argument is moot.
https://fortune.com/2023/07/06/mark-zuckerberg-replacing-metaverse-with-twitter-killer-threads-fediverse/ (may be paywalled, it worked for me once, but visiting again it was blocked)
Threads isn’t going to be one instance. Threads is gonna be like Kbin or Lemmy. Users can set up their own instances. So you can’t simply defederate from Threads as a whole. I’m sure there will be some primary instances one can defederate from, but this preemptive motion to do so seems misguided and may not even be possible as we don’t truly know what the domain will end up being.
Not saying meta isn’t evil…. but the whole point of the fediverse is that anyone can start a server. Meta isn’t going to be able to track you any better just thru federation, anyone can already scrape the data. People are too quick to defederate everything
you are replying to the wrong thread, try reading my post. See how I don’t care about your arguments(I care about your comments, just not the arguments themselves) and only care they they will control the narrative.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a wait-and-see approach.
We know the history of Meta. We ignore the history to wait and see.
This is literally FUD. Unless you can provide actual details of what the problem actually would be, you’re just spreading fear with no basis.
Given the relative scales, it’s best to put protection in place, then wait and see.
If Threads is a positive place, we open up and nothing is lost.
If Threads is a(nother) cesspit of hate and bots, then we have protected ourselves from it.
That argument works the other way a lot better. Mainly because a delay of a day or so won’t kill anyone and we’d actually see if it’s a cesspool and not some random screenshots or hearsay.
The admin is ready to defederate. Theres no benefit to doing it early.
I disagree entirely, that’s simply incorrect. You can observe whether it is a cesspool or not whether you federate or not. The federation will not affect it at all. Everyone is able to go and use Threads, we won’t need to rely on “random screenshots or hearsay”, or to federate in order to see whether it’s good or not.
It’s an unknown quantity, 1000x bigger than the current fediverse. If we federate then block, there is just a mess to clean up. And you know the first few days are going to be a nightmare anyway, as they are with any social media platform, while the controls spin up and new ways to abuse them are found.
The benefit to doing it early is to let it land and let the smoke clear before making a judgement, without creating a mess for existing users. This is really obvious.
I fail to understand your benefit. Defederation is extremely quick. If it’s a problem, there’s no mess to really deal with. I fail to see what the problem is even if it is problematic for a day or two. No one has actually voiced a real concern that provides a valid benefit to defederating beforehand vs seeing what happens and then defederating. You lose absolutely nothing.
As you said, “if it is problematic for a day or two”. It could be enormously problematic.
You fail to understand the benefit, and I don’t need to convince you, it’s still correct :)
Pretty sure you can’t explain what’s wrong because you have no idea how ActivityPub works.
Good rebuttal though. “Just trust me I’m right. Stop asking for details or questions. Just do what I say.”
I’m getting sick of these “time to leave” posts about people wanting to jump ship on each sites decision. Beehaw decided they only want peaceful severs, time to leave. Lemmy.ml was founded by communists, time to leave! Lemmy.world doesn’t instantly defederate from other instances, time to leave!
You can’t just continually shuffle the community from site it site.
We want to prevent enshittification. Not encourage it.
Where is the indication that lemmy.world have “bent the knee”?
The fact that you ask that is exactly what i mean.
edit: The deafening silence is what i was referring to here, my post has an update about what i mean further. I should have fully explained at the time but was going into “answer everyone” overload and cheaped out.
You even admitting to not reading the post when you said this. The link you added leads to a post that you then admitted to not reading til later. They haven’t bent a knee. You’re just overreacting. You’ve provided no evidence other than just “look at their history” or vague claims similar to that. Other times you just insult the person providing an actual argument. You’re a bad faith actor. You’re toxic. Are you sure you don’t belong on Threads?
I just read the post you linked in the op. I was against federating then changed my mind after reading the post. Their reasoning makes sense, there is no benefit from detaching now but it’s good to be cautiously optimistic with no issue with federating if there’s potential harm.
They are pushing for a system to keep threads in check, which is what is needed
it’s good to be cautiously optimistic
I vaguely remember a quote about nazis at a table.
edit: i’m implying that this instance is complicit, nothing about you personally.
Also, i totally agree with upgrading lemmy itself.
Cautiously optimistic means making sure you’re actually seeing if folks are Nazis before calling them Nazis. They’re saying let’s sit at the table and leave the table if we see Nazis.
You again have provided zero arguments as to why a wait and see approach causes any problem. If the defederate a week after Threads launches ActivityPub, what horrors would have occurred that can’t be undone? And if it’s as bad as you suggest, it’d likely be only hours after launch.
If anyone does decide to leave lemmy.world, do not leave the lemmyverse. Join another lemmy instance or start your own instance. Lemmy is the future. Free, open source, federated link aggregator.
You don’t need to stick with Lemmy. Kbin is just as good. I actually prefer it because they already solved the problem of allowing users to block domains.
What is the difference between lemmy and kbin? Is Kbin PHP while lemmy is rust based?
Honestly, I don’t know much of the differences or if it’s even simply which framework they used. It just seems to be two different link exchanges/sharing apps that are compatible with each other. Like, I’m currently on kbin but can see this just fine. I’m not sure what my instance’s stance is currently, but there’s no need to act beforehand as there’s nothing lost by doing it afterward instead of before. I don’t understand the people complaining that it needs to happen immediately right now. Just seems so impatient and entitled. Folks just need to calm down. They’re pulling their hair out for no reason. No one has been able to articulate an actual real problem with wait and see. Just very vague “meta is obviously evil” kind of deal.
I understand privacy being a concern but reddit, lemmy and kbin are not designed for privacy since all posts are public. I guess the upvote/downvotes could be more private perhaps which will protect what users voted on if a database leak occurred.
And E2EE messages are coming in the future I believe
What are you talking about?
mastodon.world, owned by the same people as lemmy.world, is not immediately defederating with threads.
How long does it take to make an announcement for the most important and simple decision one can make? The thing is, they announced quietly that they are allowing federation with threads. Interacting with threads goes against the spirit of us leaving the corporate cesspool of reddit and doesn’t even need a discussion.
and doesn’t even need a discussion.
The assumption that anti-corporate is the unanimous opinion of everyone here is false. I have and use apps from Meta. This is a topic that very much needs discussion.
I for one would appreciate federation with Meta. We can always defederate if Meta actually does something objectionable. But I see no reason to defederate before we actually know what federation with Meta looks like.
We can always defederate if Meta actually does something objectionable. But I see no reason to defederate before we actually know what federation with Meta looks like.
I don’t hate corporations out of principle like the other guy, but there’s no way this is gonna turn out well for the Fediverse. That’s just not how Meta does things.
Agree, honestly, if people haven’t figured out that mega-corporations can and will find a way to ruin a free space, you haven’t been on Earth very long.
This stance doesn’t affect the argument though. They’re joining that space regardless of whether they defederate now or later.
You do realise the average person here now is from exiting reddit because they did bog standard corporate things? If they aren’t aware they dislike the corporate part of reddit and like the lemmy part then… well…
The “average” person does not even know what an API is or cares. I doubt they even know what’s going on. You sure do like to make grand sweeping statements that have no basis in fact.
Never said a thing about APIs… you shouldn’t make such grand sweeping statements.
As for the average person here, plenty of statistics say that corporate reddit shenanigans and the influx of users happened at the same time, this is simple fact. They got booted off, or chose to come here because of the corporate side of reddit. This is about as simple as simple can be Aldursil. Are you a bot? or just… ya know
Wow, now insulting. The last thing people do when they run out of ideas. Welcome to my block list.
I’d like to disagree with OP, but a lot of us did join after Reddit fucked up.
“you shouldn’t make grand sweeping statements”
Ok. You’re just a troll now aren’t you. Those are the only statements you’ve been making.
I agree in spirit, but Meta is a known bad actor and wrecking ball that ran actual psyops against its own users and their networks just to see if they could make people depressed. They also engage in extensive, worldwide election interference to upend democracies. They don’t get the benefit of the doubt anymore.
This article lays out all the problems with the wait and see approach. We’ve been here before, unfortunately, and it only has a happy ending for the huge corporations looking to end us.
Edit: for those looking to get away from Mastodon’s main instances, give Fosstodon a look. Meta approached its admin with NDAs just like they did with Ruud, but refused it and published the email for openness. Here it is, by the way.
Federating would do more than defederating. The whole argument is that if they stop federating, they’ll destroy the fediverse. People will leave activitypub-native instances to go to threads instead because they can’t see Threads.
It’s actually more important to show people a better way. Granted, if it’s toxic, and we just defederate anyway, then it’s already not a threat that most of the fediverse would change sides.
The EEE approach is not about whether any particular instance federates or not. Threads would need to create enough value to even make people want to care about them breaking protocol. And more to the point, we are a different culture than back then.
The only threat would be if you’re worried Threads would provide substantially better content than here. It’d need to be good enough that a threat of them defederating others is more dangerous. If people made that argument, maybe I could see their point. But so far, I think the bigger threat is the content itself being toxic and garbage. I say let Threads mature a bit and let’s see where it stands if and when they do federate (and if we even have to worry about seeing it on Lemmy or Kbin).
And let’s be honest, Google didn’t kill XMPP just out of EEE. They did so by simply making such a monolithic platform that “everyone” had an account already so why create a separate account for messaging by itself. Pretending Google Talk existed in a vacuum is deceptive at best and objectively wrong at worst. I have a Google account and it’s causing me such agonizing pain that it’s taking me so long to extract myself out of it. It’ll likely take me months or even years to fully remove myself and that’s not even counting that I then need to migrate out of Microsoft too.
I think it’s silly people are using arguments from pre-launch. If what I’m being told is true from what is being posted there, it’s no doubt that it’ll get defederated from most places fairly quickly. However, whether your instance federates with it or not will do nothing to address your concerns that are legitimate. You have nothing to fear from the algorithm or curation in any way. That won’t affect you, federated or not. You also won’t be drowned out either. That’s not how federation works. Threads will dominate the narrative for a bit regardless of federation.
And your closing statement about “us” and “we” is culty and creepy. Don’t speak for people you don’t even know.
You want a server run by “one of you”? Run one yourself. You can do so for well under $100 a month (likely significantly lower depending on how snappy you want it).
I’m kind of tired of folks protesting against people hosting instances for others and entitled individuals making demands that they’ve done nothing to earn.
This has nothing to do with corporate. If you read what you linked, you’d know that full well. I’m guessing you didn’t go more than that one link deep and didn’t dive down to read the given reasons for the stance. Lazy.
I really wanted to reply to you but deleted half way in, sorry burning out. most people aren’t responding to what I’m actually saying, but just making massive assumptions half the time. For example I’m not talking about the API, EEE or privacy at all in the slightest.
Us and we can be used strangely by some, you might be reading into it a bit too much, but i also coulda phrased better. we/us as in the refugees of corporate bs from reddit.
I replied to the points you literally put in your post. I don’t know what you want. What points are you making then? What worry did I not address?
I really wanted to reply to you but deleted half way in, sorry burning out
I just want basic respect and for you to be literate. Go view lunars answer to see my central point. I’ve answered everything else you have said in other posts here. I’m not going to feed trolls any more.
I find it hysterical you pointed out someone being abusive but you’re absolutely a condescending asshole. Are you sure you even belong in this community? You’re acting ridiculously shitty to people. You yourself are toxic. If you want to be logically consistent, you should delete your account. Don’t be toxic.
I believe the approach described in https://www.timothychambers.net/2023/07/03/instagram-threads-and.html is much more pragmatic than “Meta is bad, Threads will corrupt us” argument and I honestly believe that fighting among fedi instances would be the first win of EEE strategy. Meta IS bad, federation with Threads may be an opportunity, fighting before even watching and assessing the situation is wrong imho. “Watching Like a Hawk, with our Fingers Over the Block Button.”
We don’t have to wait and see? Meta has a proven history.
His write up doesn’t cover the issue my post is about, but it does cover a fair bit. I also worry about fracturing the community but see it differently. If everyone rejected meta or if everyone embraced meta, we would be an unfractured community. Unfortunately we aren’t fully one way or the other. The best part though is that we can split into different instances. My biggest issue is that to my knowledge, on lemmy.world there were no announcements stating intent, and to people like me that means pro-corporate and I need to leave. If they just announced I would have just slowly left without much fuss.
i do realise lemmy isn’t effected that badly compared to mastodon, but the basics still stand.
I feel like your post is low info outrage bait.i am no expert on all this but this seems dramatic.
I made the mistake of not just updating my post when I reply to people. My responses are scattered through the post. I encourage you to ctrl-f.
I was getting sidetracked, but thanks to your encouragement I updated the main post.
Awesome! Thanks a lot for caring enough to do all this.
Thanks :) I should have done it sooner. It was a touch exhausting managing a dozen conversations at once. Have you seen my cute downvote collection? haha
Or you can just leave once you actually see what happens. You lose nothing. You’re providing no actual problem posed by wait and see. If it isn’t good and they defederate after Threads federates, there’s very little difference to defederating beforehand. Certainly no permanent problems. I think most people are choosing not to stress and worry for literally no reason, especially when it may not come to pass.
Less stress in your life is better. Worry is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but it won’t get you anywhere.
