WhatTrees

your version of “pacifism” is completely meaningless, and that by your standards, you could still call yourself a pacifist while taking any side in any conflict.

Hey buddy, I’m not a pacifist. Never claimed to be one. I also never provided a personal definition of pacifism. You are the one who said that the encyclopedia of philosophy must be wrong in their definition because you don’t like it. You are the one trying to condense a topic of much discussion for thousands of years into a black and white “for or against violence in all forms” kind of pacifism. If you don’t like the definition, take it up with the people who wrote them and the people who have argued over the specifics for thousands of years. Once again, someone is not not a pacifist simply because you don’t agree with their definition. Your definition of pacifism is identical to appeasement.

Your definition of pacifism is indeed meaningless, manipulative, and self-aggrandizing, intending to steal valor from the association with people who actually stand by their strongly held moral convictions against violence.

Lol. Yes, listening to the people who believe a thing and explaining how it’s complicated to an outsider intent on painting it in black and white terms is totally stolen valor. Jesus Christ dude, get over yourself. You’re not a vanguard. Just because you want appeasement in this conflict doesn’t mean anyone else should give a shit about your opinions, especially considering that you didn’t even know there was debate about this among pacifists until today. You don’t get to define that term for them.

yOu KnOw YoUr PrEvIoUs CoMmEnTs ArE sTiLl ViSiBlE, rIgHt?" God you people can be insufferable. I stand by everything I said in my previous comments, none of which in any way contracts what I’m saying.

Ya, it’s totally me that’s been an insufferable cunt this whole conversation. Definitely. And you totally didn’t say “I’m a communist” or “I look to Lenin” in your previous comments. Got it.

How on earth does being a communist and referencing Lenin have anything to do with the positions you invented for me?

Oh ya, it’s totally a coincidence that you have been shilling for Russia this whole conversation, identified as a communist, referenced Lenin as an authority, and said Ukraine should “seek peace.” Totally unrelated things that definitely have no connection whatsoever. You think I was born yesterday? You think this is the first time I’ve interacted with a tankie too chicken-shit to say their true opinions?

Look I’ll show you what it looks like to have conviction in your opinions:

People like you are a plague on the movement to make a better world. Your insistence on providing support and cover for totalitarian ass-holes with red paint makes it impossible for anyone to take actual socialists and communists seriously. Your defense of genocide and war crimes shows the rest of the world that people like you don’t actually want a better world, you want one where American doesn’t exist, even if every civilian on earth had a worse quality of life. You make actual change impossible by pretending that you will one day have enough influence for “the revolution” while doing shit-all to actually make things better in the mean time. You reject democracy and anything that would help people now and are somehow delusional enough to think that if we let people get fucked over enough we will have our “revolution” in a way that totally wouldn’t result in far worse outcomes for everyone. You are larping and it hurts the people who actually give a shit about making things better now on the road to making them even better later. You are the reason that our movement is forever chained around the neck to the failures of the past. Men who claimed to want to support the workers of the world while killing and disappearing anyone who got in the way of their personal pursuit of power.

Again, putting words in my mouth, inventing positions whole cloth based on nothing and assigning them to me. You sure like assigning things to people just so long as they don’t happen to be phrased as labels, huh?

What the fuck did you mean by “Russia should seek peace” then? If they want peace they can fuck off! They don’t need to seek anything, they need to get fucked. By painting both sides of this as equally needing to “seek peace” you are creating the image that they are morally equal. Combine that with your weak-ass attempt at what-abouting the Donbas shows me all I need to know.

Obviously not. I’ve stated my positions numerous times. I even offered to explain the theoretical influences behind my positions. This time, you’re taking words out of my mouth lmao. I guess that’s a nice change of pace.

No one cares about the “theoretical influences” of your opinions. You’ve been “just asking questions” while defending Russia and claiming Ukraine should stop defending itself. Constantly trying to act like both parties are equally wrong and both should just stop fighting the other. One party started this war by invading the other. One party has been documented kidnapping, raping, and killing civilians. One party has had to make mass graves. One party has been condemned by practically every other country for their abhorrent actions in this war, the other hasn’t.

You seem to think that I don’t understand that language is mutable and collectively defined.

You literally still don’t get it. It’s not that it can change and is collectively defined, it’s that language is entirely defined by the meanings used by the specific members of the conversation. General uses and society at large have nothing to do with it.

What I also understand is that language can be used as a tool of manipulation.

Ahhh ok. So you think it’s manipulative to use a word like pacifism if they don’t use it the way you, a person who isn’t a pacifist and has apparently never looked up the definition or works discussing it before, define it. Got it. Good to know your intuition about what a word means is the gold standard of what other people can do without being manipulative.

You literally made everything up whole cloth, and the positions you made up for me were obviously absurd and incoherent.

Oh, so you didn’t say any of those things? You didn’t say you were a communist? You didn’t reference Lenin? Are you trying to say that you haven’t been excusing Russia’s actions (like talking about “Ukraine bombing civilians in the Donbas” ) and trying to argue against Ukraine’s? You know your previous comments are still visible, right?

Are you saying you don’t support Russia?

No, they should seek peace.

That Ukraine should continue to fight against their invaders?

No, they should seek peace.

Of course not!

Incorrect.

I love that you think that using the same words would imply that you think they are on equal footing. They aren’t. If Ukraine wants peace, they will continue to fight for peace. What you really mean is that they should capitulate so that Russia gets to keep the land they stole and rule over the citizens they haven’t raped, kidnapped or killed yet. If Russia wants peace they can fuck off back to their own country. I love that you somehow think that both are equally wrong in a situation where one autocratic government invaded a democratic neighbor and continues to attempt to steal land and rape and murder civilians.

Just man-up and state your positions with gusto.

I have. The “secret positions” that I’m supposedly hiding are entirely your invention

Cool. So we’re just going back to pretending that you’ve been commenting on this thread for hours because you really have no opinions whatsoever. You were just asking questions! Good to see you upholding the long-standing tradition of Nazi apologists and MLs alike of hiding your true positions because you’re incapable of defending them!

As long as we both understand the definitions being used there is no issue here. Again, you seem to think that words have objective meaning and that uses outside of that are “wrong”. That’s not how words work. You can call yourself a noble prize winner in this conversation since I know what you mean, but might have a harder time once you try that with someone else who doesn’t know your definition. Your argument isn’t a gotcha just because you think it sounds ridiculous.

I haven’t said anything about my positions on any topic. I’m not sure how you gathered what I support. I have called out your ridiculous attempt to define pacifism in a way that most self-identitfied pacifists don’t, claim that others are using it wrong, claim that the definition from an authoritative source is wrong because you don’t like it, and now collapsed into “I guess all words are meaningless then”. It’s not my problem that you don’t understand how words work.

You said you are a communist, you talked about following Lenin, you have been doing everything you can to justify why Ukraine should not fight back against the aggressor in this conflict. I don’t have a reach very far to find your actual opinions on things. If you think I’m wrong, you can correct me. I didn’t assign any label to you or tell you what words you can or cannot use. I extrapolated from what you have given so far, which is a defense of everything Russia has done and a sideways condemnation of everything Ukraine has done. Add a splash of references to Lenin and complaints about America bad, what else do you think someone reading this thread is going to see?

Are you saying you don’t support Russia? That Ukraine should continue to fight against their invaders? Of course not!

Just man-up and state your positions with gusto. Why do people in your camp always play the same “I’m just asking questions, I have no opinions” bullshit the right always plays? Just say it. Just say “America bad, Ukraine bad because America supports them, Russia good because America doesn’t like them.”

Words are tools. As long as both parties understand the meaning behind them, they are useful. If you don’t understand the way someone is using a term, ask them. You don’t get to tell them it’s wrong, there are no wrong ways to use words as long as both parties understand the meaning.

I don’t give a shit at all about your understanding of Communism other than as an example about how rude and condescending it is to tell other people that they are using words wrong. While I don’t think you are an actual communist by my definition, you are free to use the word to describe yourself based on your definition.

How did I know this would turn into a parade of Russia apologia. If you can’t see the difference between an army bombing violent separatists armed and given orders by a hostile neighbor and troops fighting back against that neighbor after it invades I can’t help you. Maybe get your eyes checked. If you can’t tell the difference between troops crossing into another country in order to bomb civilians and take control of land and troops fighting them back to regain land and save the civilians from the invaders I can’t help you. It’s not my fault that you are incapable of seeing the very obvious harm caused by Russia’s invasions.

As long as you accept that there is a possible situation where fighting back against an invading force is good then your whole argument about the definition of pacifism is mute. You aren’t one and have no stake in that conversation at all, other than to obfuscate your actual position. “Ukraine bad because west, Russia not as bad because they used to wear red. Find any excuse possible to have Ukraine stop defending themselves.” That’s all this is. Why not just have the balls to say what you really think? Why not just say “Ukraine should stop defending itself because I think autocratic governments that used to be socialist are preferable to western democracies because America bad”?

If a person uses a term you don’t think fits them you should ask them about their definition of it. It’s not up to you to decide what labels people are allowed to apply to themselves. At best your complaint is about people not using a word “correctly” even though that’s not how words work.

For example, you call yourself a Communist but appear to be supporting the government of Russia in their actions by attempting to discourage Ukraine from defending itself and its citizens. Communism is anti-state by definition, do I get to tell you you’re not an actual communist? Or would it be better for me to ask you about your definition and get to understand the nuances of your position?

Do the people drafted to go across a border and bomb civilians and the people drafted to stay in their country and defend it against an opposing army have the same morality behind it? Can you understand how one of those actions might be more justified than the other? How one of them could be violence in the hope of future peace for others vs violence in hope of gaining more land and more bodies for the meat-grinder?

If your county was invaded by what you see as a great evil because of their actions against civilians (I’m just going to assume the US would fit that from your perspective) would you say it was immoral to fight back in the hopes of lowering civilian deaths and injustice after the land is taken?

Here’s a good breakdown of the discussions over the past 100 years including different types of pacifism. Only absolute pacifism argues for no self defense and no defense of others. There is also this that argues specifically that pacifism doesn’t always mean a lack of self defense.

As you note in the next section, the 100 years was only in reference to the time since pacifism as a term was coined and I continued to talk about religious groups that have had similar options for thousands of years.

The Jains are only one example. You should probably talk to some Jains as there is much discussion in that community about this. Not all Jains believe the way you think they do. See here as a start.

If you’re not even a pacifist, then maybe defer to them to define it.

Since you’re not, I take it you agree with what Ukraine is doing then. Good to know we are on the same page.

Then your definition of pacifism is inherently flawed. You condensed at least 100 years of discussion by philosophers (and likely thousands of years of discussion from Asian religious groups that have “do no harm” as a tenant) into a single “pacifism is when you never fight back or fight to protect others”. Only one type of pacifism defines itself that way.

Are you arguing that things would be better if every country invaded by another rolled over and accepted the aggression of the other?

Your edits do add additional context and information, but they miss the broader point

Forced marriages (sometimes called arranged marriages) are a breach of consent regardless of abuse or trafficking being involved. Having your parents set you up with a date you are free to ignore or choose to engage with is one thing, having them pick who you will marry and when without your consent is another. Regardless of culture, you don’t get to violate others consent.

I, for one, am shocked, shocked that defenders of Russia are still using the same easily disproven lies to justify invading, occupying, and murdering a neighboring country.

It’s not like Russia has a history of lying about its military operations in Ukraine or anything, right?

It reminds me a bit of the US intelligence saying that Russia was going to invade Ukraine and attempt to make it all the way to Kiev while Russia was adamant that it would never happen.

The other thing to note is that all countries have an “obligation to report” which requires them to report evidence of terror attacks to any county that would be the victim, even if they are a hostile nation. As much as “US bad” is true, it’s frankly refreshing to see us do the right thing so publicly, even if it was only as a way to make Putin look bad.

WTF are you even talking about? You keep using super vague phrases to try and argue that (and I’m just guessing here since I legitimately can’t tell what you are trying to say) LGBTQ advocates are ignoring history?

What history are you pointing to? Why would that history matter in fields like medical science? Would the history of gender help us understand that some people identify as trans? Would it help us understand the best practices in helping them?

Was this all just a way to complain about “men” going into women’s spaces?

They only get out on parole if the board (or whatever the UK’s equivalent is) believes they have learned a lesson and are safe to reenter society. If not then they stay until the next board meeting. I have a hard time imagining they would get out after 20 years for murder without the board being pretty damn sure they are no longer a danger to society.

As gross and heinous as these crimes are, I will never favor life-without-parole or the death penalty for minors.

Unless you do the online command so it pulls the most recent wim and does it on its own. I’ve got a batch file I use to fix computers at work that does the online dism followed by sfc and have had a few successes with it.

Ya man, those 3000+ children really fucked around.

The lengths some people will go to to support ethnostates…

You’re still confusing the pretext with the actual reason. Hamas and the Zionists both say they are doing this for religious reasons, but the actual reasons are much more complex and almost entirely political and social. You’re buying into the propaganda from both sides of you really think the root of this catastrophe is religion.

Hamas only exists because of the occupation and oppression caused by the state of Israel.

Religion is the coat of paint put on top of an occupation that is actually the root cause here.

Both the Zionists and the Jihadists claim to be inspired by their religion, but the actual cause of the decades-long conflict has little to do with religion and much more to do with decades of occupation and oppression.

They could be, but we won’t ever know as long as they are treated the way they are by Israel.

Terrorist groups don’t tend to form in stable, prosperous, and free countries.

You really wouldn’t understand why some Ukrainians would support a party that calls for the death of all Russians? You really can’t see why Afghans supported the Taliban during the American occupation? I’m not asking if it’s right for them to do so, or if it’s right for people to support those that do, in asking if you can understand why they’d feel that way.

What are your thoughts about the Haitian slave revolt?

Hamas’ stated goal is a product of Israeli actions. Terrorist groups calling for the destruction of another country don’t tend to form in stable, prosperous, and free countries.

Not to mention that Israel has been actively stealing Palestinian land for decades and recently argued to the UN that all of Palestine was a part of Israel. They aren’t exactly respecting the border either. They are also seen as an existential threat to the Palestinians.

Israel doesn’t see a two state solution as an option either. They either want full control over Palestine or a puppet state that they have almost total control over. No real Arab state would be allowed by them and they’ve made that clear.

Nothing good will happen until tensions deescalate, which can’t happen until Israel backs down from their occupation and oppression. You won’t stop making new terrorists until they are treated as people.

Would you blame some Ukrainians for wanting all Russians dead?

What if Russia kept this up for 50 years? What if they cut off power and water to Ukraine? What if they blockaded it for decades? Would you blame them for voting for a party that wants the Russians dead? Do you blame Afghan citizens for supporting the Taliban after a decade of American occupation?

Good luck finding anyone who thinks Hamas’ actions are good, but they are entirely predictable. Hamas is the only outcome that could ever happen with the environment Israel created and maintains to this day.

If riots are the voice of the unheard, terrorists are the voice of those unheard after decades of oppression and occupation.

The right-wing party in Israel (the party currently in control even after losing multiple elections) will also never support peaceful co-existence. They will never allow a real two state solution where the other state has control over its borders, air, water, import rights, etc. They want Palestine completely gone, and in fact Bibi was just at the UN arguing that Israel already has complete control and ownership over the Palestinian territories. Palestine is allowed to defend against the longest running occupation in history. There is no happy ending here as long as the Israeli boot is on the Palestinian neck.