it’s a major flaw and I hope it gets addressed as lemmy/fediverse evolves, or else it’s not going to work
Defederation is an important tool for admins (e.g. if a server full of nazis appears, we want it to be defederated immediately).
Hopefully admins realise over time it’s stupid to defederate over trivial stuff, and it causes users to revolt and possibly a decline in your server’s activity.
Also, make sure you complain to your admin if they do this, or just leave and go to a new server.
(e.g. if a server full of nazis appears, we want it to be defederated immediately).
This seems obvious to everyone else, but not to me. Why would we want to do that instead of just dealing with them one by one when needed or just individually blocking communities/users?
I’m extremely uncomfortable with an authority deciding for me what I may see in my feed and what not.
Why would we want to do that instead of just dealing with them one by one when needed or just individually blocking communities/users?
Who would be “dealing with them one by one”? People seem to keep forgetting that lemmy, both the code and the infraatructure, is developed and maintained by hobbyists, not by a company.
I’m extremely uncomfortable with an authority deciding for me what I may see in my feed and what not.
You should really think about this, in my opinion, entiteled attitude… You are not the one paying for the server, you are not the one running the server you are certainly not the one who will have to deal with potential legal actions if illegal shit is going on on your instance…
You are not entiteled to any of this… You don’t have to pay in any way for any of it and lemmy admins don’t earn any money from you…
Imagine not only getting into trouble for a hobby, but have random people complain about “authority” because you don’t want to/can’t deal with potentially illegal shit on your server…
If you are so concerned about “authority” and about “what you see on your feed”, start your own server and federate with whoever you want, or start a server that is collectively owned and controlled by it’s users or something like that… You can very very easily do that…
Spreading Nazi propaganda is illegal in some countries… The amount of moderation necessary would be unsustainable. And Nazis tend to propagate violence anyway, which is illegal in most places.
And why is it so important to allow Nazis to “share their views” on your platform anyway? What possible benefit could this bring to a platform?
If Nazi content is something you don’t want blocked, then I recommend you find a different instance because not many people will share your values here.
No one is stopping you from joining a server full of Nazis.
Those openly avocating violence and cruelty towards others who are being neither violent or cruel aren’t “just another reasonable point of view that deserves to be heard”
Not contributing to the debate necessarily, I’d just like to take a moment to say:
Tbf, if you don’t like “Those openly avocating violence and cruelty towards others who are being neither violent or cruel,” then you’ll want to be on an instance that defederates lemmygrad and lemmy.ml. Before the reddit exodus this place was almost entirely genocide denialiasts who support Cuba, China, Russia (incl. the current invasion and simping for the USSR), and who want to literally murder all small business owners and landlords even if they only rent out their spare room or an old townhouse from before they got married for some extra income to help pay for meds in retirement, but no matter, “bourgeoisie.”
The only reason they aren’t so prominent today is the flood drowned them out a bit, they’re still very much here, and they’re no better than the Nazis, and the kicker is they both think they’re the good guys lol.
Edit: Hehe downvotes mean nothing here, but I can see I upset a few of those genocide denialists and that makes me happy.
Nazis aren’t the point. Censorship is. Hard to see how a community that requires an individual federated server for everyone to avoid censorship is going to eventually come close to the popularity of Reddit.
The problem for those operating a Lemmy instance is that they are hosting copies of the content of all federated instances.
So if one instance is filled with illegal content, the admins of all federated instances must remove it on their instances to avoid law enforcement kicking down their doors.
If there is too much illegal content on one instance to effectively moderate manually, defederation is the solution.
This is beside the fact, that some might have their own additional non-legally mandated requirements for content they host on their platform.
The problem for those operating a Lemmy instance is that they are hosting copies of the content of all federated instances.
If that’s genuinely the way it works, it seems really dumb.
Fetch data from instances you’re trying to access, rather than hosting everything on all servers. That seems like a quick way to get half the fediverse defederated from each other.
Authority deciding what you see? You mean like Reddit does? With Lemmy you can always change servers, heck, even set up your own server with your own rules.
Not everyone is required to do so. You just need to find a server that aligns with your values. Communities always censor content, one way or another. Call it moderation. Otherwise, you end up a piling piece of burning trash.
You seem to be saying that moderation actions should be performed against users, not instances. You’re not getting that instances ARE users. On a network where anyone can create an instance, and then as many accounts on that instance as they like, moderating accounts from a hostile instance is POINTLESS.
Everyone here says to run your own server, as if that’s the mindset that’s going to bring in users and increase the popularity of federation. A little short-sighted.
No, they say that IF you want to have control over what instances yours federates with, then fucking put up, pay for the server, and make those decisions. Otherwise, pay an admin to do it for you, or be happy with what you get.
I don’t think the goal is to increase the popularity at the moment. I think it’s manage the chaos. The fediverse has had a massive increase over the past few days and you kind of need to use the emergency tools that are part of federations to manage that growth.
I mean I’m just one person but I’m here to stay and if it shrinks or grows I don’t really care I just know I don’t want to go back to Reddit. I also like the ability to defederate as I’ve seen that reddit has had a long history of allowing bad actors to go untouched because they’ve never broken an actual rule.
Now imagine that chaos, but everyone is running their own server. There are already posts and replies that won’t accept my votes.
Who’s a bad actor? Liberals? Conservatives? Who gets to decide who the bad actor is?
Lemmy needs to allow Server-managers to defederate other servers due to obviously illegal material. And Lemmy needs to allow Users to block or ignore servers just due to any number of reasons. But the decision should be left to the user.
I’m 100% anti-censorship, and if a Server is going to be run that way there needs to be a way for existing users and new users to know that. And that’s the problem because a lot of new users are already stressed at picking a server.
There’s a big difference between opposing censorship and insisting that private individuals must platform whatever speech you say they should. The difference is so great it is hard to believe you are arguing in good faith.
Isn’t that a bit of hyperbole? If it was turning into what you said we’d be seeing a far greater amount of servers than we are.
The point of the fediverse is decentralization. That means if you have a predominant rigid viewpoint you can find an instance that shares that view. I don’t think at the current state of development that the fediverse can have a dominating instance that connects everything. It’s up to you to create a community you feel is missing on the instance you’ve settled in if no other federated instances have that community.
We’ve proven through Facebook, Reddit, and Twitter that we suck at communicating across groups on social media and are more interested in insulting whoever disagrees with us than communicatimg effectively.
That being said the Fediverse is young. Things aren’t perfect. It’s still less censored than almost any other social media platforms aside from 4chan and I’d urge you to use that if you are looking for anti-censorship.
For myself, I’ve picked out a dozen instances and I drift between them all while I figure this out. I treat it just like my half dozen alt accounts I had on RiF.
Everyone missing the point because the example is “Nazis”. It doesn’t matter what it is, I don’t want someone else deciding what I can see. Unless it causes legal problems for the server, don’t censor me.
Individual servers isn’t the quick answer everyone seems to think it is.
Different instances have different ideologies. You can get a user on “everything-conservative” which blocks half if the federation, or you can get into a free for all instance which allows all. Big generic instances like lemmy.world do have a big problem on their hands, they have to make the bubble the common denominator of all users, which is hard to know.
Individual servers isn’t the quick answer everyone seems to think it is.
It might not be quick, but it’s probably the only answer. You can’t both have someone else run and be responsible for a server that you use and expect them to do everything exactly like you’d want it. Especially if doing it your way might result in significantly more work for them.
That’s true for Lemmy as it is for Reddit and any other service on the internet that you use, but don’t run yourself. The only difference with federated services like Lemmy is that there’s at least the possibility of just doing it yourself.
Defederation is an important tool for admins (e.g. if a server full of nazis appears, we want it to be defederated immediately).
Hopefully admins realise over time it’s stupid to defederate over trivial stuff, and it causes users to revolt and possibly a decline in your server’s activity.
Also, make sure you complain to your admin if they do this, or just leave and go to a new server.
This seems obvious to everyone else, but not to me. Why would we want to do that instead of just dealing with them one by one when needed or just individually blocking communities/users?
I’m extremely uncomfortable with an authority deciding for me what I may see in my feed and what not.
Who would be “dealing with them one by one”? People seem to keep forgetting that lemmy, both the code and the infraatructure, is developed and maintained by hobbyists, not by a company.
You should really think about this, in my opinion, entiteled attitude… You are not the one paying for the server, you are not the one running the server you are certainly not the one who will have to deal with potential legal actions if illegal shit is going on on your instance…
You are not entiteled to any of this… You don’t have to pay in any way for any of it and lemmy admins don’t earn any money from you…
Imagine not only getting into trouble for a hobby, but have random people complain about “authority” because you don’t want to/can’t deal with potentially illegal shit on your server…
If you are so concerned about “authority” and about “what you see on your feed”, start your own server and federate with whoever you want, or start a server that is collectively owned and controlled by it’s users or something like that… You can very very easily do that…
Obviously the admins need to deal with content that’s illegal. I’m not talking about that.
Spreading Nazi propaganda is illegal in some countries… The amount of moderation necessary would be unsustainable. And Nazis tend to propagate violence anyway, which is illegal in most places.
And why is it so important to allow Nazis to “share their views” on your platform anyway? What possible benefit could this bring to a platform?
If Nazi content is something you don’t want blocked, then I recommend you find a different instance because not many people will share your values here.
No one is stopping you from joining a server full of Nazis.
Those openly avocating violence and cruelty towards others who are being neither violent or cruel aren’t “just another reasonable point of view that deserves to be heard”
Nice to meet another vegan in the wild.
Not contributing to the debate necessarily, I’d just like to take a moment to say:
Tbf, if you don’t like “Those openly avocating violence and cruelty towards others who are being neither violent or cruel,” then you’ll want to be on an instance that defederates lemmygrad and lemmy.ml. Before the reddit exodus this place was almost entirely genocide denialiasts who support Cuba, China, Russia (incl. the current invasion and simping for the USSR), and who want to literally murder all small business owners and landlords even if they only rent out their spare room or an old townhouse from before they got married for some extra income to help pay for meds in retirement, but no matter, “bourgeoisie.”
The only reason they aren’t so prominent today is the flood drowned them out a bit, they’re still very much here, and they’re no better than the Nazis, and the kicker is they both think they’re the good guys lol.
Edit: Hehe downvotes mean nothing here, but I can see I upset a few of those genocide denialists and that makes me happy.
Why would anyone want to stay connected to a Nazi community, except for the obvious reasons?
Nothing prevents people from just creating new accounts on another instance of lemmy - ban evasion is trivial.
If you’re uncomfortable with this feel free to set up your own server.
Nazis aren’t the point. Censorship is. Hard to see how a community that requires an individual federated server for everyone to avoid censorship is going to eventually come close to the popularity of Reddit.
If reddit had had /r/NationalSocialism and /r/ChildPornography and refused to ban them, I don’t think it would’ve become as popular as it is.
It called them /r/jailbait and /r/the_donald.
Still not the point.
The problem for those operating a Lemmy instance is that they are hosting copies of the content of all federated instances.
So if one instance is filled with illegal content, the admins of all federated instances must remove it on their instances to avoid law enforcement kicking down their doors.
If there is too much illegal content on one instance to effectively moderate manually, defederation is the solution.
This is beside the fact, that some might have their own additional non-legally mandated requirements for content they host on their platform.
How would you do it?
Fetch data from instances you’re trying to access, rather than hosting everything on all servers. That seems like a quick way to get half the fediverse defederated from each other.
That’s exactly what happens. But you have to store the fetched data on your instance if you want to display it there.
Authority deciding what you see? You mean like Reddit does? With Lemmy you can always change servers, heck, even set up your own server with your own rules.
Yes, exactly like Reddit does. How does a federated system manage when everyone is required to run their own server to avoid censorship?
Not everyone is required to do so. You just need to find a server that aligns with your values. Communities always censor content, one way or another. Call it moderation. Otherwise, you end up a piling piece of burning trash.
You seem to be saying that moderation actions should be performed against users, not instances. You’re not getting that instances ARE users. On a network where anyone can create an instance, and then as many accounts on that instance as they like, moderating accounts from a hostile instance is POINTLESS.
No, I’m saying I dont want a 3rd party pre-selecting the content I’m allowed to see. I want to make the choices myself
If you don’t want someone to decide who you can connect with, you can spin your own instance. Otherwise every instance has admins that aren’t you
Everyone here says to run your own server, as if that’s the mindset that’s going to bring in users and increase the popularity of federation. A little short-sighted.
No, they say that IF you want to have control over what instances yours federates with, then fucking put up, pay for the server, and make those decisions. Otherwise, pay an admin to do it for you, or be happy with what you get.
I don’t think the goal is to increase the popularity at the moment. I think it’s manage the chaos. The fediverse has had a massive increase over the past few days and you kind of need to use the emergency tools that are part of federations to manage that growth.
I mean I’m just one person but I’m here to stay and if it shrinks or grows I don’t really care I just know I don’t want to go back to Reddit. I also like the ability to defederate as I’ve seen that reddit has had a long history of allowing bad actors to go untouched because they’ve never broken an actual rule.
Now imagine that chaos, but everyone is running their own server. There are already posts and replies that won’t accept my votes.
Who’s a bad actor? Liberals? Conservatives? Who gets to decide who the bad actor is?
Lemmy needs to allow Server-managers to defederate other servers due to obviously illegal material. And Lemmy needs to allow Users to block or ignore servers just due to any number of reasons. But the decision should be left to the user.
I’m 100% anti-censorship, and if a Server is going to be run that way there needs to be a way for existing users and new users to know that. And that’s the problem because a lot of new users are already stressed at picking a server.
There’s a big difference between opposing censorship and insisting that private individuals must platform whatever speech you say they should. The difference is so great it is hard to believe you are arguing in good faith.
Isn’t that a bit of hyperbole? If it was turning into what you said we’d be seeing a far greater amount of servers than we are.
The point of the fediverse is decentralization. That means if you have a predominant rigid viewpoint you can find an instance that shares that view. I don’t think at the current state of development that the fediverse can have a dominating instance that connects everything. It’s up to you to create a community you feel is missing on the instance you’ve settled in if no other federated instances have that community.
We’ve proven through Facebook, Reddit, and Twitter that we suck at communicating across groups on social media and are more interested in insulting whoever disagrees with us than communicatimg effectively.
That being said the Fediverse is young. Things aren’t perfect. It’s still less censored than almost any other social media platforms aside from 4chan and I’d urge you to use that if you are looking for anti-censorship.
For myself, I’ve picked out a dozen instances and I drift between them all while I figure this out. I treat it just like my half dozen alt accounts I had on RiF.
Everyone missing the point because the example is “Nazis”. It doesn’t matter what it is, I don’t want someone else deciding what I can see. Unless it causes legal problems for the server, don’t censor me.
Individual servers isn’t the quick answer everyone seems to think it is.
Then join a server that federates with everyone no matter what
Different instances have different ideologies. You can get a user on “everything-conservative” which blocks half if the federation, or you can get into a free for all instance which allows all. Big generic instances like lemmy.world do have a big problem on their hands, they have to make the bubble the common denominator of all users, which is hard to know.
It might not be quick, but it’s probably the only answer. You can’t both have someone else run and be responsible for a server that you use and expect them to do everything exactly like you’d want it. Especially if doing it your way might result in significantly more work for them.
That’s true for Lemmy as it is for Reddit and any other service on the internet that you use, but don’t run yourself. The only difference with federated services like Lemmy is that there’s at least the possibility of just doing it yourself.