That’s not true. We have on record oil and gas companies having studied and internal communication they know climate change is coming. Yacht, private jets, and cruises cause a majority of carbon emmissions. Billionaires are the ones who have yachts and jets and a billionaire owns cruise companies. Musk is the most prominent, but other car manufacturers have lobbied against the building of public transportation.
We know there is a disproportionate amount of pollution coming from companies. I think we all do need to play a part, but if you want actual meaningful and quick change it needs to come from these companies. You know, these companies that were ruled as “people”. These companies like Amazon who have more money and power than small countries. It’s on these “people” to lead us into clean emissions but they aren’t.
It is no where close to anywhere we working class produce. They have the brunt of blame, and thus responsibility. And you can go ahead and search for cruise ships. They should not exist. They are a nightmare for the environment and people.
I’m not defending the lifestyles of the ultra-wealthy, as far as I’m concerned they should be jailed or sentenced to hard labour - for a fair wage, of course.
Most poor people in the West have huge carbon footprints because what they can afford to buy is cheap and imported from countries like China and, if they can afford a car, it’s not likely to be a hybrid or an electric. What else can they do? Should we expect the poor to live shittier lives when the people who are doing the vast majority of the damage are allowed to keep going?
60+ years old, not homeless but I’m by the government standards in US at poverty level.
When you’re poor you are and always have been living a mostly sustainable life, not out of choice, but because you can’t afford any other option. So you don’t eat meat at every meal, and if you do it’s the cheapest kinds and it’s never more than a cup per person, if not less.
You recycle/re-use/re-purpose anything you can.
You buy from thrift stores, flea markets, yard sales, goodwill stores, et al.
You ask for family and friends hand-me-downs, old pots and pans, whatever they got to give, honestly.
You don’t travel because it’s not even affordable, unless you’re gonna hitch hike or take a greyhound bus.
You don’t buy books you go to a library IF you’re lucky and one’s located nearby.
All your technology is old and/or used, refurbed, and if you’re lucky you could cobble something together (build a pc, for example) but you never have the latest and greatest parts etc, you’re always behind and just barely limping along.
You cut your own hair.
You make all your own meals.
You patch and repair your own clothes.
You suffer when it’s too fucking hot and you freeze when it’s too fucking cold because you either can’t afford an AC, or if you can, then you can’t afford to run it very long, and also either you can’t afford an appliance to heat your home, or if you can, it’s just barely ran so you don’t run it all that high or for very long; and with both AC and Heating, you never heat more than a single room, wherever you are dwelling.
IF you’re lucky enough to have a vehicle, you do you’re own service and repairs.
And, I could still go on and on.
I’m NOT stating that everything I did, and have done, and am still reduced to doing, is all 100% sustainable, but I AM stating, that without even purposely trying, just about everything I’ve ever do, always came about out of NECESSITY, rather than a conscious choice to be sustainable, and yet, being poor still brought about A LOT of automatic sustainable results. And I’m feeling it’s that way for most poor people.
If you can’t afford to consume a lot, then you ain’t consuming a lot.
I hear ya! I don’t have a car, so I walk to/from work everyday or take the bus if I have to go further than I can walk. I was surprised to learn that some people thought I was being “holier-than-thou” by not driving. I’m not trying to be a “saint” or whatever, I just can’t fit a car and all its related expenses into my budget!
for one people could just stop eating meat - or stop treating flying as a normal thing you do for holiday
the problem is that most people think others are to blame for one reason or anoher and don’t see that literally everyone has to change…
this whole thing is just a huge prisoner’s dilemma and noone will make the first move in fear of others not moving and exploiting that situation in the short term while ignoring that they are fucking over the planet in the long run…
You need to differentiate between poor in a wealthy country vs. globally poor. I know plenty of “poor” people in the US who can still scrape together enough cash for a plane ticket to go on vacation, but they’re still in tons of debt with zero savings.
You have to be able to afford to spend thousands to go to any major tourist destination far from you in the U.S. or Europe when you factor in the cost of air travel, hotel cost and food, not to mention any attractions you might want to see while there.
If you can afford to “scrape together” enough to do that, you are not poor. It really sounds like your privilege is showing.
People make bad financial decisions all the time? I dunno why you’re so angry about this. Like, would you say someone with $10,000 of debt, no house, making $13 an hour is not poor? I mean ya they aren’t destitute and homeless but that person sure as fuck wouldn’t call themselves rich, you know?
Plane Tickets for a city trip between European capitals are like 20-50€
Tickets to the most popular holiday destinations are regularly possible to get for less than 100€
Sure it’s not for the poorest 20-30% but I was mostly talking about the huge amount of people in the middle class.
My point is that it doesn’t matter - you can always choose. The American settlement-style of making it impossible to do stuff on foot even within cities is one of the very few things I’d count as something where you don’t really have a choice.
“Fuck the people struggling to survive for having the ability to live a little and go on vacation, they deserve to be punished the exact same as the millionaires and billionaires jumping into their private planed to fly 45mins to skip an hour of LA traffic.”
Got one guy yelling that real poor people can’t afford plane tickets and you’re calling me stupid for the opposite reason. Meanwhile I’m here like, I never even took a position on the actual argument, I just wanted to make a distinction between poverty in wealthy countries vs poor countries. Yeesh
It’s not like average people really have a lot of choice in the matter. You can’t practically avoid buying materialistic garbage, because you need stuff just to live, and there aren’t non-shitty alternatives. The blame lies almost exclusively with corporations that took the easiest, cheapest routes in order to maximize profits.
Corporations didn’t have to say, ship manufacturing to China, where environmental regulations are … lax, and use giant polluting container ships to move good back and forth. But that was cheaper and more profitable than domestic production.
The pattern repeats across a thousand different examples. It always comes down to businesses being able to externalize environmental impact and a complicit government allowing it.
Not just corporations, governments as well. As an American it pisses me off that we’ve spent all of my life debating whether or not it’s real while doing next to nothing, improving milage and emissions is nice but we need to stop and not only for passenger vehicles either trucking and shipping really need to stop their pollution as well. And that’s where governments can come in. They can fund r&d and make rebates at the time of purchase so that it’s easier to make a change. Instead we have dipshits that think because it snows global warming is fake.
people could stop flying for leisure - they could stop using their car for every trip that could also be made by bike - they could vote for politicians that are actually campaigning for changing stuff instead of promising people to keep their lifes as it is - they could stop eating meat every day
there’s a lot of stuff a single person can choose to not do that would result in huge change if enough people did it since that would actually allow even moderate politicians to change things that actually matter.
if a politician right now is even thinking about banning beef or tripling the price of gas and making flights even more expensive than that they can pretty much start looking for another job since that would be a huge change for a huge part of the population - if enough people started deliveratly foregoing beef or using the most convenient option possible then we might have a chance.
the problem is that people are fucking lazy and a lot of them are egoistic, too - so everyone just claims that others have to change first…
and then there are those “bUt ChInA1!1!”-guys that totally ignore that china is building more renewables each month than any other country does per year and that they still pollute less per person than western countries and also less in total over the last 150 years than western countries, too.
it’s people in the US or Europe that have to lead the charge since they are the ones that profited MASSIVELY from the pollution 100 years ago that led us into this mess…
People in the US are trying to change things. Most new homes in my area have a strong emphasis on green technology including heat pumps and solar panels. There’s a big push for EVs over ICEs and there are more and more EV charging stations all over the country every year. The younger generations are calling for more train transportation and Amtrak in my area is actually making some changes to help promote passenger rail.
Your ‘blame the west’ mentality is some serious PRC propaganda bullshit. 0 of the top 20 most polluted cities in the world are western cities. Most of them are in India, which is actually where these Cheetahs died.
You want to blame someone? Blame the international elite. The 0.1% takes what they want, consequences be damned.
As someone from Germany my toes curl everytime someone blames “the elite” - that’s a very dangerous road of thinking to go down…
Those 0,1% don’t matter if the 99,9% don’t slow down their emmisions, too.
Everyone cutting down a little bit is helping A LOT more that the richest 0,1% cutting down most. Sure they pollute a lot more than your average person so they totally should cut down but imho it’s mostly about creating acceptance than about the pure emissions.
While I get your point, it’s those same people who can actually make the change needed. They can stop with their super yachts and support yachts and helicopters and private planes and million dollar cars as disposable playthings and mega mansions they spend a month in a year. They can make the companies they control become greener. You or I could only do so much.
The biggest meat-replacement producer in Germany right now is a company that until 20 years ago only produced meat products. I think it was 2 years ago that they made more profit with their replacements and are projected to stop producing meat altogether in the next 2 decades because of how many people bought their replacements and how they don’t need the meat anymore to survive
That’s a drop in the bucket compared with emissions from super-polluters. Even if I rode my bicycle everywhere–which isn’t practical for where I live–and even if every one of the 5000 people in my town did the same, that still wouldn’t offset Taylor Swift’s jet habit for a week.
Everyone is to be blamed. From us consumers who buy materialistic stuff to people who manufacture it. Everyone should be punished.
That’s not true. We have on record oil and gas companies having studied and internal communication they know climate change is coming. Yacht, private jets, and cruises cause a majority of carbon emmissions. Billionaires are the ones who have yachts and jets and a billionaire owns cruise companies. Musk is the most prominent, but other car manufacturers have lobbied against the building of public transportation.
We know there is a disproportionate amount of pollution coming from companies. I think we all do need to play a part, but if you want actual meaningful and quick change it needs to come from these companies. You know, these companies that were ruled as “people”. These companies like Amazon who have more money and power than small countries. It’s on these “people” to lead us into clean emissions but they aren’t.
I don’t think yachts, private jets and cruises cause the majority of carbon emissions. Even if they are entirely frivolous and unnecessary.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/lesliefinlay/how-celebrity-private-jet-emissions-affect-environment
It is no where close to anywhere we working class produce. They have the brunt of blame, and thus responsibility. And you can go ahead and search for cruise ships. They should not exist. They are a nightmare for the environment and people.
🤔 We need solar-electric cruise lines, and solar-electric yachts. If the rich were forced to go electric, it would help solve a lot of problems.
I’m not defending the lifestyles of the ultra-wealthy, as far as I’m concerned they should be jailed or sentenced to hard labour - for a fair wage, of course.
Most poor people in the West have huge carbon footprints because what they can afford to buy is cheap and imported from countries like China and, if they can afford a car, it’s not likely to be a hybrid or an electric. What else can they do? Should we expect the poor to live shittier lives when the people who are doing the vast majority of the damage are allowed to keep going?
60+ years old, not homeless but I’m by the government standards in US at poverty level.
When you’re poor you are and always have been living a mostly sustainable life, not out of choice, but because you can’t afford any other option. So you don’t eat meat at every meal, and if you do it’s the cheapest kinds and it’s never more than a cup per person, if not less.
You recycle/re-use/re-purpose anything you can.
You buy from thrift stores, flea markets, yard sales, goodwill stores, et al.
You ask for family and friends hand-me-downs, old pots and pans, whatever they got to give, honestly.
You don’t travel because it’s not even affordable, unless you’re gonna hitch hike or take a greyhound bus.
You don’t buy books you go to a library IF you’re lucky and one’s located nearby.
All your technology is old and/or used, refurbed, and if you’re lucky you could cobble something together (build a pc, for example) but you never have the latest and greatest parts etc, you’re always behind and just barely limping along.
You cut your own hair.
You make all your own meals.
You patch and repair your own clothes.
You suffer when it’s too fucking hot and you freeze when it’s too fucking cold because you either can’t afford an AC, or if you can, then you can’t afford to run it very long, and also either you can’t afford an appliance to heat your home, or if you can, it’s just barely ran so you don’t run it all that high or for very long; and with both AC and Heating, you never heat more than a single room, wherever you are dwelling.
IF you’re lucky enough to have a vehicle, you do you’re own service and repairs.
And, I could still go on and on.
I’m NOT stating that everything I did, and have done, and am still reduced to doing, is all 100% sustainable, but I AM stating, that without even purposely trying, just about everything I’ve ever do, always came about out of NECESSITY, rather than a conscious choice to be sustainable, and yet, being poor still brought about A LOT of automatic sustainable results. And I’m feeling it’s that way for most poor people.
If you can’t afford to consume a lot, then you ain’t consuming a lot.
I hear ya! I don’t have a car, so I walk to/from work everyday or take the bus if I have to go further than I can walk. I was surprised to learn that some people thought I was being “holier-than-thou” by not driving. I’m not trying to be a “saint” or whatever, I just can’t fit a car and all its related expenses into my budget!
deleted by creator
for one people could just stop eating meat - or stop treating flying as a normal thing you do for holiday
the problem is that most people think others are to blame for one reason or anoher and don’t see that literally everyone has to change…
this whole thing is just a huge prisoner’s dilemma and noone will make the first move in fear of others not moving and exploiting that situation in the short term while ignoring that they are fucking over the planet in the long run…
Right, all of those poor people who take airplanes on their vacations…
What the fuck are you talking about?
You need to differentiate between poor in a wealthy country vs. globally poor. I know plenty of “poor” people in the US who can still scrape together enough cash for a plane ticket to go on vacation, but they’re still in tons of debt with zero savings.
You have to be able to afford to spend thousands to go to any major tourist destination far from you in the U.S. or Europe when you factor in the cost of air travel, hotel cost and food, not to mention any attractions you might want to see while there.
If you can afford to “scrape together” enough to do that, you are not poor. It really sounds like your privilege is showing.
People make bad financial decisions all the time? I dunno why you’re so angry about this. Like, would you say someone with $10,000 of debt, no house, making $13 an hour is not poor? I mean ya they aren’t destitute and homeless but that person sure as fuck wouldn’t call themselves rich, you know?
Plane Tickets for a city trip between European capitals are like 20-50€
Tickets to the most popular holiday destinations are regularly possible to get for less than 100€
Sure it’s not for the poorest 20-30% but I was mostly talking about the huge amount of people in the middle class.
My point is that it doesn’t matter - you can always choose. The American settlement-style of making it impossible to do stuff on foot even within cities is one of the very few things I’d count as something where you don’t really have a choice.
“Fuck the people struggling to survive for having the ability to live a little and go on vacation, they deserve to be punished the exact same as the millionaires and billionaires jumping into their private planed to fly 45mins to skip an hour of LA traffic.”
That’s what you sounds like, you sound stupid.
Got one guy yelling that real poor people can’t afford plane tickets and you’re calling me stupid for the opposite reason. Meanwhile I’m here like, I never even took a position on the actual argument, I just wanted to make a distinction between poverty in wealthy countries vs poor countries. Yeesh
It’s not like average people really have a lot of choice in the matter. You can’t practically avoid buying materialistic garbage, because you need stuff just to live, and there aren’t non-shitty alternatives. The blame lies almost exclusively with corporations that took the easiest, cheapest routes in order to maximize profits.
Right.
Corporations didn’t have to say, ship manufacturing to China, where environmental regulations are … lax, and use giant polluting container ships to move good back and forth. But that was cheaper and more profitable than domestic production.
The pattern repeats across a thousand different examples. It always comes down to businesses being able to externalize environmental impact and a complicit government allowing it.
Not just corporations, governments as well. As an American it pisses me off that we’ve spent all of my life debating whether or not it’s real while doing next to nothing, improving milage and emissions is nice but we need to stop and not only for passenger vehicles either trucking and shipping really need to stop their pollution as well. And that’s where governments can come in. They can fund r&d and make rebates at the time of purchase so that it’s easier to make a change. Instead we have dipshits that think because it snows global warming is fake.
people could stop flying for leisure - they could stop using their car for every trip that could also be made by bike - they could vote for politicians that are actually campaigning for changing stuff instead of promising people to keep their lifes as it is - they could stop eating meat every day
there’s a lot of stuff a single person can choose to not do that would result in huge change if enough people did it since that would actually allow even moderate politicians to change things that actually matter.
if a politician right now is even thinking about banning beef or tripling the price of gas and making flights even more expensive than that they can pretty much start looking for another job since that would be a huge change for a huge part of the population - if enough people started deliveratly foregoing beef or using the most convenient option possible then we might have a chance.
the problem is that people are fucking lazy and a lot of them are egoistic, too - so everyone just claims that others have to change first…
and then there are those “bUt ChInA1!1!”-guys that totally ignore that china is building more renewables each month than any other country does per year and that they still pollute less per person than western countries and also less in total over the last 150 years than western countries, too.
it’s people in the US or Europe that have to lead the charge since they are the ones that profited MASSIVELY from the pollution 100 years ago that led us into this mess…
People in the US are trying to change things. Most new homes in my area have a strong emphasis on green technology including heat pumps and solar panels. There’s a big push for EVs over ICEs and there are more and more EV charging stations all over the country every year. The younger generations are calling for more train transportation and Amtrak in my area is actually making some changes to help promote passenger rail.
Your ‘blame the west’ mentality is some serious PRC propaganda bullshit. 0 of the top 20 most polluted cities in the world are western cities. Most of them are in India, which is actually where these Cheetahs died.
You want to blame someone? Blame the international elite. The 0.1% takes what they want, consequences be damned.
As someone from Germany my toes curl everytime someone blames “the elite” - that’s a very dangerous road of thinking to go down…
Those 0,1% don’t matter if the 99,9% don’t slow down their emmisions, too.
Everyone cutting down a little bit is helping A LOT more that the richest 0,1% cutting down most. Sure they pollute a lot more than your average person so they totally should cut down but imho it’s mostly about creating acceptance than about the pure emissions.
While I get your point, it’s those same people who can actually make the change needed. They can stop with their super yachts and support yachts and helicopters and private planes and million dollar cars as disposable playthings and mega mansions they spend a month in a year. They can make the companies they control become greener. You or I could only do so much.
Voting with your wallet totally works though.
The biggest meat-replacement producer in Germany right now is a company that until 20 years ago only produced meat products. I think it was 2 years ago that they made more profit with their replacements and are projected to stop producing meat altogether in the next 2 decades because of how many people bought their replacements and how they don’t need the meat anymore to survive
It only works when the alternatives are at a similar price. I can’t vote with my wallet when I can’t afford the alternatives.
Quick quiz: which is cheaper? 1000 calories from Ramen noodles, or 1000 calories from fresh leafy greens, fresh fruits, and whole grains and legumes?
Ramen noodles aren’t the problem
There are a lot of vegetarian ramen noodles out there…
That’s a drop in the bucket compared with emissions from super-polluters. Even if I rode my bicycle everywhere–which isn’t practical for where I live–and even if every one of the 5000 people in my town did the same, that still wouldn’t offset Taylor Swift’s jet habit for a week.
Why are you here preaching to us about carbon footprints when you yourself are wasting electricity doing so?
deleted by creator
Not everyone, the minority who is rich enough to be the consumer in the first place