That depends on what you mean by “treated”. Men are not as well trusted not to be violent, and taken less seriously when the victims of sexual crimes. Women are paid less well and get more online abuse. That’s just a few examples for each side, obviously we could go on and on. Maybe we all want better treatment.
Males being raped is a very underreported and tragic occurrence. You can’t compare apples and oranges.
(I have friends who were raped and never reported or did anything about it, out of stigma, shame, or not expecting anything [justice] to come of reporting it)
I have female friends who never reported or did anything about it, out of stigma (what were you wearing? Were you asking for it? Are you faking?), shame (why was he able to get you alone?) Or not expecting justice to come of reporting it (you’ll ruin his life, it was a mistake, I’m sure you deserved it, we don’t have enough evidence.)
Meanwhile men don’t have access to support groups, are not supported by anyone when they admit it, get straight up ridiculed for this ever happenning by both everyday people and justice system…
It happens to both genders. But we managed to build fundamental lattice of support for one of them (fundamental as in there’s still so much to do), while failing to even recognize the other one faces this problem too. We do not have to compromise on helping one side to help the other - that’s straight up not an option. But we should help, and recognize the need of help, for both.
Fucking thank you. Men’s libbers (and there’s a loooooot of them on lemmy, as you can see in your downvotes) like to trot out the “men don’t report because of stigma!” line, but it’s like, my guy, women do too?? For every woman brave enough to report, there’s anywhere from 5-10 that don’t report at all due to fear/stigma.
Of course rape happens to men (mostly by other men) too. But, couple things:
it’s not a competition or dick measuring contest. Rape is bad, m’kay? Regardless of gender.
it’s disingenuous to say that it happens to men just as much, or more. It feels icky, like they’re shoving themselves in a victimhood narrative where they don’t belong.
I have to ask, what do you hope to accomplish with this line of discussion?
So far we have:
Men have it worse? What about RAPE!?
Ok maybe men get raped but it’s by other men (…and therefore what?)
Anyone who downvotes is a men’s libber
Ok rape is bad full stop regardless of gender but
Saying men get raped more (who said this btw?) means they are trying to be victims when they don’t belong as victims.
Let me tell you, as a man who struggles with mental health, there are a shit load of “men’s help” content creators that bait the hook with showing empathy for men’s issue and then sprinkle just enough mysogonisric bullshit in there to get people to start sliding down that slippery slope.
Talk like this is exactly what makes people think “you know what, maybe this misogynistic asshole had a point, I tried to say that maybe men shouldn’t be mistreated then got told that because men rape people, we don’t matter.”
I know that’s not your point or what you wanted to say, but just read back what your said and try to imagine you’re reading it as someone struggling with mental health. Maybe even try reversing the genders and see if you’re still ok with what you said.
Personally I think women in general have a harder time, but why does that matter here? There are plenty of issues unique to or especially bad for men, women, nb folks and we should be discussing issues with empathy for both sides and not falling down these extremist, side picking rabbit holes trying to play ‘gotcha’. That just hurts everyone.
In terms of downvotes, I’d note that the person actually asking for the evidence that men are treated worse overall is (imo rightfully) upvoted at this time. So I’d challenge your assumption that everyone who downvoted you is a certain type of person.
The root cause is, almost, always men though. The majority of men’s societal problems is the cause of a society that has, nearly exclusively, been controlled by men, for thousands of years. The same is true for women. Also, most of women’s problems with violence come from men. Most of men’s problems with violence come from men. Women are the victims of rape, and homicide, nearly completely due to men. This same thing goes for men with these problems. In fact, men are so bad to men, men are more likely to be the victim of homicide than women, and men make up nearly 100% of those homicides.
I say this as a man. A man who had a woman poison me, and nearly murder me. The men problem is the one that needs to be addressed first. This has to happen because men, and the society we built, are the reason for the majority of the problems we have today.
With the question of violence, and many other societal, problems, it’s men, all the way down.
I’m not by my partner. Never have been, that’s why I love her, she’s always been kind.
But she also carries some distrust and resentment towards mean-justifiably given trauma-that is sometimes directed at me, inadvertently I think. Which sucks and doesn’t make me feel great, but it also makes sense from her perspective and she’s not got an issue with me
She does, as does everyone. So it’s walking a balance of respecting her and her trauma and being supportive, while also standing up for myself when needed
Isn’t that the status quo? I guess it’s not really fathers to daughters, but most women I know went through some amount of “here’s how to be a good wife” lessons from their mothers or family. I think women get a lot of “traditional gender roles” training that’s mostly about being caretakers.
Usually people putting forth this kinda “women should learn how to care for their man” attitude are coming from a conservative “traditional family values” position.
Really, we should be teaching people how to ask about and learn the needs of their partner, and how to determine your own needs and communicate those to your partner. Basic emotional intelligence stuff. It doesn’t have to be gendered at all.
I guess you’re a man?
So am I.
Have you been treated like shit in your relationships? I’m sorry to hear that.
I have been treated by like shit by some women in relationships as well. Then I got out of those relationships.
I know you peeps probably didn’t mean it this way, but men fall victim to the same psychological traps women do. It’s not that easy to just leave a bad relationship, especially if you don’t have the expectations and tools required to identify what’s not normal
You’re absolutely right, of course.
We should aspire to ensure everyone is equipped in that respect before they leave home!
What I want to say is: Yeah, it can be as difficult for men to leave a bad relationship as it can be for women. That isn’t a reason to treat men any different from women.
Her comment jump to the conclusion that men should be tasered for no particular reason. Looking at suicide ratings it obvious men are subject to a lot of mental stress and pressure from society.
Women should be protected and cared for. Men should be tasered.
My guy, the motivation is right but the thinking is wrong.
You teach your daughter how to spot manipulative behavior, teach her how to stand up for and protect herself, teach your daughter how to respect herself AND others, teach her how to love herself AND others, teach her what a healthy relationship looks like…
Boys will be boys, they will be dumb and horny teenagers and they will try shit, even with the absolute best of dumb horny boy intentions, also teenage lesbians are quite keen on trying shit too. You need to teach them to spot the difference between their first love and someone telling them what they want to hear in order to go up their shirt.
You teach your daughter how to spot manipulative behavior
Yeah, only do it right. Because some girls have apparently been taught to classify anything they don’t understand as that. Sucks being autistic and trying to explain some emotion and being accused of manipulation and ghosted, because that’s easier than admitting that sometimes you just don’t understand other people as well as you think.
I also hate that folk psychology with “personal borders” (usually asymmetric, quite normal things said to those people are apparently emotional abuse, and quite heavy things from them are just life) and “red flags” (usually applied to autistic people and not applied to literal creepy\insecure behavior) and a few thumb rules which apparently describe anything in a conversation. People employing that also by default consider that everything is fine with them personally.
Thanks, but these are open doors. Glad to see there’s at least one sensible person in this threat though. I just made a single sentence comment that people read way to much into. Now I’m the world’s worst parent and I deserve all the funny comments that attack me personally on issues about which I lie awake at night.
Maybe my comment was a bit rude but please don’t teach your daughter to instantly distrust people based on their gender. That’s a recipe for undersocilization that’s going to fuck her up for a long time
Maybe you’re not a nazi after all, lol. But I try to stay away from gender issues as much as possible, that’s not what this was about. It seems no matter what I say, it’s always offending someone’s gender. I’m sad to see it’s not possible to escape it though.
This feels reductive. Are you seriously saying ‘trust boys’ is a message you should give girls right now? I have boys and girls, and I would never tell my daughter ‘yeah just default to trusting guys’ – hell she had issues with boys not understanding consent or bodily autonomy in elementary school.
And I 100% blame those of us around those boys, we’re the adults, but the fact is girls literally cannot afford to just trust men or boys on meeting.
We need to teach our boys and men to stop doing these things and then we can tell everyone to trust by default.
There is a sequence. People earn trust, then they get trust. That is the sequence.
Individual boys will be trusted if they deserve it.
Masculinity won’t because it has broken trust. We’ve got a major crisis here, and it won’t be solved with downvoting feminist opinions or demanding trust. We have inherited a deeply broken situation, and many of the loudest voices in masculinity are still disasterously counterproductive.
The way forward is to forge a better masculinity that is an ally to the other genders. Maybe earn trust back. We can start by listening to women and hearing their concerns. Downvoting and negating their concerns pushes them in the wrong direction, doesn’t it?
I’m not gonna teach my daughters who they are or are not supposed to trust. Because I will never teach my children what they should think, but rather how to think for themselves. I will encourage them to only trust individuals that prove themselves trustworthy, but again, that’s not my decision to make.
They’re not extensions of me; they are distinct, individual human beings. So I certainly hope you will not teach her to be distrustful; that leads to misery and pain, all in the pursuit of something that doesn’t belong to you and never will (her mind is her own, whether you like it or not).
I mean it’s actually an interesting point though?
Men should be loved and cared for in a relationship too, not treated like shit by default.
I hope you aren’t treated like shit by default.
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Got some links to share?
That depends on what you mean by “treated”. Men are not as well trusted not to be violent, and taken less seriously when the victims of sexual crimes. Women are paid less well and get more online abuse. That’s just a few examples for each side, obviously we could go on and on. Maybe we all want better treatment.
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Males being raped is a very underreported and tragic occurrence. You can’t compare apples and oranges.
(I have friends who were raped and never reported or did anything about it, out of stigma, shame, or not expecting anything [justice] to come of reporting it)
I have female friends who never reported or did anything about it, out of stigma (what were you wearing? Were you asking for it? Are you faking?), shame (why was he able to get you alone?) Or not expecting justice to come of reporting it (you’ll ruin his life, it was a mistake, I’m sure you deserved it, we don’t have enough evidence.)
That pendulum swings both ways.
Meanwhile men don’t have access to support groups, are not supported by anyone when they admit it, get straight up ridiculed for this ever happenning by both everyday people and justice system…
It happens to both genders. But we managed to build fundamental lattice of support for one of them (fundamental as in there’s still so much to do), while failing to even recognize the other one faces this problem too. We do not have to compromise on helping one side to help the other - that’s straight up not an option. But we should help, and recognize the need of help, for both.
Fucking thank you. Men’s libbers (and there’s a loooooot of them on lemmy, as you can see in your downvotes) like to trot out the “men don’t report because of stigma!” line, but it’s like, my guy, women do too?? For every woman brave enough to report, there’s anywhere from 5-10 that don’t report at all due to fear/stigma.
Of course rape happens to men (mostly by other men) too. But, couple things:
I have to ask, what do you hope to accomplish with this line of discussion?
So far we have:
Let me tell you, as a man who struggles with mental health, there are a shit load of “men’s help” content creators that bait the hook with showing empathy for men’s issue and then sprinkle just enough mysogonisric bullshit in there to get people to start sliding down that slippery slope.
Talk like this is exactly what makes people think “you know what, maybe this misogynistic asshole had a point, I tried to say that maybe men shouldn’t be mistreated then got told that because men rape people, we don’t matter.”
I know that’s not your point or what you wanted to say, but just read back what your said and try to imagine you’re reading it as someone struggling with mental health. Maybe even try reversing the genders and see if you’re still ok with what you said.
Personally I think women in general have a harder time, but why does that matter here? There are plenty of issues unique to or especially bad for men, women, nb folks and we should be discussing issues with empathy for both sides and not falling down these extremist, side picking rabbit holes trying to play ‘gotcha’. That just hurts everyone.
In terms of downvotes, I’d note that the person actually asking for the evidence that men are treated worse overall is (imo rightfully) upvoted at this time. So I’d challenge your assumption that everyone who downvoted you is a certain type of person.
The root cause is, almost, always men though. The majority of men’s societal problems is the cause of a society that has, nearly exclusively, been controlled by men, for thousands of years. The same is true for women. Also, most of women’s problems with violence come from men. Most of men’s problems with violence come from men. Women are the victims of rape, and homicide, nearly completely due to men. This same thing goes for men with these problems. In fact, men are so bad to men, men are more likely to be the victim of homicide than women, and men make up nearly 100% of those homicides.
I say this as a man. A man who had a woman poison me, and nearly murder me. The men problem is the one that needs to be addressed first. This has to happen because men, and the society we built, are the reason for the majority of the problems we have today.
With the question of violence, and many other societal, problems, it’s men, all the way down.
I’m not by my partner. Never have been, that’s why I love her, she’s always been kind.
But she also carries some distrust and resentment towards mean-justifiably given trauma-that is sometimes directed at me, inadvertently I think. Which sucks and doesn’t make me feel great, but it also makes sense from her perspective and she’s not got an issue with me
Sounds like she needs kindness. I have someone in my life like that. They’re working on it but it’s a long hard road.
She does, as does everyone. So it’s walking a balance of respecting her and her trauma and being supportive, while also standing up for myself when needed
Good. Sounds like you’re doing your best by her.
What if we are shit, by default?
Speak for yourself
Isn’t that the status quo? I guess it’s not really fathers to daughters, but most women I know went through some amount of “here’s how to be a good wife” lessons from their mothers or family. I think women get a lot of “traditional gender roles” training that’s mostly about being caretakers.
Usually people putting forth this kinda “women should learn how to care for their man” attitude are coming from a conservative “traditional family values” position.
Really, we should be teaching people how to ask about and learn the needs of their partner, and how to determine your own needs and communicate those to your partner. Basic emotional intelligence stuff. It doesn’t have to be gendered at all.
That’s what I thought the comments would be about but apparently he should just get called creepy instead.
Sir, this is a shit posting community.
Dont act like this didnt happen on Reddit, serious discussion in spacedicks, dickjokes in worldnews…
Sir, Reddit is a shit
postingcommunity.always has been
I guess you’re a man?
So am I.
Have you been treated like shit in your relationships? I’m sorry to hear that.
I have been treated by like shit by some women in relationships as well. Then I got out of those relationships.
The moral of the story is: Don’t hang around in relationships where you’re treated like shit.
There’s other possible morals here too, but let’s keep with this one. I think it says it all.
I know you peeps probably didn’t mean it this way, but men fall victim to the same psychological traps women do. It’s not that easy to just leave a bad relationship, especially if you don’t have the expectations and tools required to identify what’s not normal
You’re absolutely right, of course.
We should aspire to ensure everyone is equipped in that respect before they leave home!
What I want to say is: Yeah, it can be as difficult for men to leave a bad relationship as it can be for women. That isn’t a reason to treat men any different from women.
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Thread closed? Why? Do you not want to defend such a statement?
Her comment jump to the conclusion that men should be tasered for no particular reason. Looking at suicide ratings it obvious men are subject to a lot of mental stress and pressure from society.
Women should be protected and cared for. Men should be tasered.
Come here so I can taze you
That’s just estim on hard mode
Yes pls
Well, I’m certainly not gonna teach my daughter to trust boys. That will lead to places I don’t even want to think about.
My guy, the motivation is right but the thinking is wrong.
You teach your daughter how to spot manipulative behavior, teach her how to stand up for and protect herself, teach your daughter how to respect herself AND others, teach her how to love herself AND others, teach her what a healthy relationship looks like…
Boys will be boys, they will be dumb and horny teenagers and they will try shit, even with the absolute best of dumb horny boy intentions, also teenage lesbians are quite keen on trying shit too. You need to teach them to spot the difference between their first love and someone telling them what they want to hear in order to go up their shirt.
Yeah, only do it right. Because some girls have apparently been taught to classify anything they don’t understand as that. Sucks being autistic and trying to explain some emotion and being accused of manipulation and ghosted, because that’s easier than admitting that sometimes you just don’t understand other people as well as you think.
I also hate that folk psychology with “personal borders” (usually asymmetric, quite normal things said to those people are apparently emotional abuse, and quite heavy things from them are just life) and “red flags” (usually applied to autistic people and not applied to literal creepy\insecure behavior) and a few thumb rules which apparently describe anything in a conversation. People employing that also by default consider that everything is fine with them personally.
Thanks, but these are open doors. Glad to see there’s at least one sensible person in this threat though. I just made a single sentence comment that people read way to much into. Now I’m the world’s worst parent and I deserve all the funny comments that attack me personally on issues about which I lie awake at night.
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Removed by mod
Maybe my comment was a bit rude but please don’t teach your daughter to instantly distrust people based on their gender. That’s a recipe for undersocilization that’s going to fuck her up for a long time
Maybe you’re not a nazi after all, lol. But I try to stay away from gender issues as much as possible, that’s not what this was about. It seems no matter what I say, it’s always offending someone’s gender. I’m sad to see it’s not possible to escape it though.
Lol is everyone who pushes your buttons a nazi?
Their username is NotANaziIWasJustBornIn1988
yeah ok your daughter is always going to not answer your calls in college lol
Is this the “college lol” you are talking about : College League of Legends | Battlefy
Because that’s what the Google told me
And here we see the pinnacle of parenthood in full swing
And the cycle continues. Congrats on being a cog in a machine we’re trying to dismantle.
This feels reductive. Are you seriously saying ‘trust boys’ is a message you should give girls right now? I have boys and girls, and I would never tell my daughter ‘yeah just default to trusting guys’ – hell she had issues with boys not understanding consent or bodily autonomy in elementary school.
And I 100% blame those of us around those boys, we’re the adults, but the fact is girls literally cannot afford to just trust men or boys on meeting.
We need to teach our boys and men to stop doing these things and then we can tell everyone to trust by default.
Yes. Trust boys. Because things happen at once, not in sequence.
There is a sequence. People earn trust, then they get trust. That is the sequence.
Individual boys will be trusted if they deserve it.
Masculinity won’t because it has broken trust. We’ve got a major crisis here, and it won’t be solved with downvoting feminist opinions or demanding trust. We have inherited a deeply broken situation, and many of the loudest voices in masculinity are still disasterously counterproductive.
The way forward is to forge a better masculinity that is an ally to the other genders. Maybe earn trust back. We can start by listening to women and hearing their concerns. Downvoting and negating their concerns pushes them in the wrong direction, doesn’t it?
I’m not gonna teach my daughters who they are or are not supposed to trust. Because I will never teach my children what they should think, but rather how to think for themselves. I will encourage them to only trust individuals that prove themselves trustworthy, but again, that’s not my decision to make.
They’re not extensions of me; they are distinct, individual human beings. So I certainly hope you will not teach her to be distrustful; that leads to misery and pain, all in the pursuit of something that doesn’t belong to you and never will (her mind is her own, whether you like it or not).