Years ago, I read an article that this is a big problem already in the north of Sweden. They have no sunset for quite a while in
wintersummer.They solve it with a rule somewhere that you can orient this on the next major city. Some interpret that to be Stockholm, others as the next major Islamic city which is Istanbul. Both feel bad about eating while the sun is out, especially when they are born is the “Muslim world”, therefore near the equator relatively speaking
There was a super interesting situation when the first Malaysian cosmonaut went to the ISS. He wasn’t the first Muslim in space, but he was apparently the first to ask for guidance about things like how to correctly conduct his daily prayers and how to observe Ramadan’s fasting. The council he spoke to made a booklet called A Guideline of Performing Ibadah at the International Space Station (ISS), which includes the delightful checklist for how to orient yourself for daily prayers: towards the kaaba if you can, if not then the kaaba’s projection, if not that then just the Earth in general, and if even that isn’t practical then wherever.
If you don’t know the direction of the Kaaba’, then you try approximating. if you can’t, then pray facing any direction. I don’t know where the other ones come from, but this is not coming from the council, but a hadeeth.
The rules I listed there are what’s in that booklet I mentioned for the specific case of being aboard the ISS, I’m not saying that they’re general guidance for all Muslims. I don’t know if there’s a more appropriate word than “council” for the group of people that put it together for the Angkasawan program, though
The guidance in that booklet was based off the scriptures, so you’re both right 👍
I am not saying that the rules are wrong, just that most of them are from a hadeeth. So the council could’ve just used that instead of making the booklet, but it’s still interesting that they did.
Would that rule apply here though, because the Cosmonaut does have knowledge about where Kaaba’ is. The problem would be that with the speeds in question the Kaaba’ doesn’t (relative to the Cosmonaut) stay there very long.
All that matters is their intention to face the Kaaba, not whether or not they actually do so
which includes the delightful checklist for how to orient yourself for daily prayers: towards the kaaba if you can, if not then the kaaba’s projection
In Low Earth Orbit (LEO) where the ISS orbits, its only about 200 miles straight up. It also makes a complete orbit of the Earth every 90 minutes with the Earth rotating underneath it to produce a zig zag pattern to an observer on a flat plane.
Because the ISS and the Earth are moving so fast, that would mean if you were oriented properly facing Kaaba when you started your prayer, pretty quickly during your prayer you’re not going to be facing it anymore. Is the prayer still proper as long as it starts when you’re facing Kaaba? Do you have to reorient yourself at the beginning of the next prayer?
I suppose with only the friction of air in the ISS against your body and you waited until the ISS was at apogee or perigee you could get one of your fellow Astronauts/Cosmonauts to orient you and impart a very slow rotation on your body matching the half the orbital period while being pointed to Kaaba’s (projection into space). That would buy you 45 minutes at the most assuming you’re at apogee or perigee. Hmm, there would also have to be a few orbits this wouldn’t work where Kaaba would be “east” relative to the Astronaut at apogee, but transits Kaaba during the orbit causing Kaaba to then be behind the Astronaut or now “west”.
Its a fascinating problem!
Such precision isn’t required by the religion, but it is an interesting problem. Facing Mecca for prayers from anywhere in the world and determining prayer timings were scientific problems that drove early Muslims make advancements in astronomy, cartography, etc.
I’m showing my bias, I hope not to offend: how does someone understanding/expert in enough math and science to become an astronaut still believe that the magic sky man cares what direction he bows in during prayer or when he eats? If it’s cultural significance I can understand that, but otherwise I just can’t comprehend how you can have such a dissonance between empiric study/career and fundamentalist religious belief
>trying not to offend
>“magic sky man”
You could at least avoid phrases that are overtly used to insult the belief. “How can someone who applies scientific thinking so broadly still have religious beliefs that contradict scientific observations?”
Is it anything other than a magic sky man?
No, but I also don’t mind if I offend any religious people with this comment. If I was trying to avoid that, I wouldn’t belittle their beliefs
Human beings are sentimental creatures. Faith often conflicts with logic. As a person who doesn’t believe in any sky daddy, I find it kind of inspiring that someone who’s smart enough in math and science could still believe in their religion.
Math and science don’t prove or disprove God. Some faiths conflict with logic but not all.
As “a person who doesn’t believe in any sky daddy” I don’t understand why you would find inspiration in something directly contradictory to your own purported views
Just because they don’t personally feel a way doesn’t mean they can’t appreciate those who do. I personally don’t want to study physics, but I can find Feynman’s pursuit of it inspiring. I don’t personally have the BFF relationship with my mom, but I find it great that some people do. Etc etc.
Many scientists are still religious. They find their god(s) in the gaps that science can’t explain yet. How the universe was created, how life first started, why the universal constants are set up the way they are. There’s a lot of things that science hasn’t explained yet where one can look for a god.
Signed, a stone cold atheist. But I still respect that some people want a little more out of their life. As long as it’s not hurting anyone, I don’t really care what they choose to believe or do with their time.
God we’re a weird fucking species aren’t we?
I heard that they would just use the sunrise and sunset of Mecca.
Probably just a difference between the different denominations tho.
Coincidentally I asked this question to a very dedicated and educated Muslim just a few days ago. He said that using Mekka time is something some do, but most scholars agree that using the time of the next reasonable city is probably better.
Such weak minds, to many there’s no compromises if somebody happens to have a different religion, but if it affects themselves the rules are very malleable.
Not talking specificly about Muslims, I see this with other religious fundamentalist as well.
For example saw orthodox Jews during a hot summer in NYC. The fuse blew out and AC stopped working, and apparently turning it back on was considered a work so they instead asked me to turn it on. So basically they are not allowed to do work, but asking someone to do the work for them on Sabbat is acceptable in God’s eyes?
So they should starve? The religion itself says self harm is forbidden. If it comes between disobeying religion and self harm you should choose disobeying religion. For example if you are starving you are permitted to eat non halal food.
Yes, absolutely.
Maybe it would help some to realize that religion was invented by powerful to manipulate the masses.
If those rules would truly come from God, they would definitively match all the laws and rules of the World created by the God.
The bloodiest wars we had and still have were because of religions. Ironically in many cases those people supposedly worshipped the same God.
I feel you misunderstood my comment. The context is that moslems have the rule not to eat before sunset during Ramadan which is difficult if the sun doesn’t set. All they judge is themselves. They feel guilty for not living up to their standards but finding a “cheat” if you will which isn’t fundamentalist at all, just normal practice
Yeah they just didn’t grow up with it so they feel weird about it. If they grew up in Sweden they probably wouldn’t feel guilty.
True. The article was specifically about refugees. It was in 2014
Perfectly exemplified: the hypocrisy and meaninglessness of religion.
Summer is the time of the year with endless days at high latitudes. That’s when the rule “don’t eat when the sun is up” becomes a problem.
Thanks. Sometimes I’m just stupid
No problem, everyone else is too.
You’re goddamn right, pal.
Just more proof that the religion is fake: it only mentions things in a certain location because that’s where its authors were. They couldn’t have conceived of a place IRL where the sun never sets.
You are factually incorrect. The scriptures themselves talk about what to do in situations when the sun doesn’t set (in particular with regard to prayer). To reiterate, it’s not some religious thinker’s opinion, but the scriptures themselves.
Sauce?
Sure. When discussing the antichrist:
We said, “Allah’s Messenger, how long would he stay on the earth?” He (ﷺ) said, “For forty days, one day like a year and one day like a month and one day like a week and the rest of the days would be like your days.” We said, “Allah’s Messenger, would one day’s prayer suffice for the prayers of day equal to one year?” Thereupon he (ﷺ) said, “No, but you must make an estimate of time (and then observe prayer).”
https://sunnah.com/muslim:2937a
This doesn’t prove Islam is fake or real, but we should approach subjects we aren’t familiar with with a touch more humility.
Edit: worth noting that fasting runs off prayer times. Can’t have food/drink/sex between the first and fourth prayer.
I appreciate you providing a source instead of telling the other commenter to find it themselves. You didn’t have to, but you did anyway, and I think in this day and age that’s very respectable.
🤝
I wonder how they would handle this in space, or on other planets? If you’re in a ship, there is no sunrise or sunset, and you aren’t going to have a 24 hour cycle of sunrise and sunset on the moon, Mars, Venus, or some alien planet orbiting a distant star.
I guess the simplest answer is to pick a location that matches whatever time they are running on (since people presumably still operate on a 24 hour clock) and to align the timing to match that. If the important thing is the observance of the ritual rather than the celestial events, then this works I guess.
On the other hand, if you’re in space on a ship or station, sunrise and sunset could be simulated by simply reorienting the thing so that the sun is hitting one side or another. Does orbiting earth or another planet mean that sunrise and sunset happen in rapid succession as you pass in and out of the planet’s shadow?
And on an alien planet with our sun as a star in the night sky, do you time it based on the star that planet is orbiting or the position relative to our sun? And then there’s the question of what the date even is, since you not only have a different local orbit and seasons, but you might not even be moving through time at the same rate, and relativity makes the concept of “now” kind of tricky when spread across interstellar distances.
This has an actual answer! The booklet A Guideline of Performing Ibadah at the International Space Station (ISS) says you use the time of wherever you launched from
But what direction do you face when doing daily prayers if you’re on Mars?
Towards Earth
So if, by their perspective, Earth is in the sky above them, they pray on their backs and if Earth is on the other side of the planet, they pray on their stomachs?
No, if you were praying in the direction of the moon for example, you’d be praying towards it’s 2 dimensional projection onto the earth’s surface. You’d determine it’s location by what direction you turn to face it. The angle your head is pointing up (inclination) doesn’t matter, just the angle your feet are pointing at.
If the moon has already set and is below the horizon, you would just find the shortest distance to that projection. If it has recently set, you would face where it was last seen. If it is close to rising, you would face where you predict it to rise.
On Mars you’d simply do the same, probably by using a phone/computer, this is what Muslims do nowadays. There are apps that show prayer times and the direction to face to see the Kaaba. An app like stellarium can show you the location of stellar objects.
If you somehow did not know where the Earth’s general location was, you’d just pray in whichever direction you want. There’s nothing wrong with that. Before the compass, Muslims used the sun to determine the angle to face towards. However, on an overcast day, a best guess would just be made.
On planes, Muslims just pray in whichever direction is convenient. If the plane is flying near Mecca, the direction would have changed by the time you finished praying either way.
The only requirement is that an effort be made, just the intention to face the Kaaba is enough.
The earth isn’t flat, but Muslims “face” Mecca when praying from anywhere around the world. Same concept.
It’s also worth noting that most ancient people knew the earth was round, including early Muslims.
Let’s just hope religion is fully dead before we ever have to worry about this, shall we?
Ramadammm
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