The regime was not attacked on October 7th. Those were innocent people that were taken hostage.
It in no way justifies Israel’s genocide or the apartheid that happened before it, but you’re acting like the hostages were running the government until October 7th.
About one third of the Israelis killed and taken hostage on October 7 were active duty IDF soldiers. That doesn’t excuse the terrorist attacks on Civilians but it is important to point out that Israel has a much worse combatant to civilians killed ratio than Hamas or Hezbollah.
That is not fair. “Active duty IDF soldier” is everyone in Israel once they reach a certain age. Even the ultra-orthodox are no longer exempt.
You’re talking about 18-year-olds who were conscripted taking some R&R to go to a music festival.
Again, this doesn’t excuse anything that has happened subsequently or anything Israel did before either, but it’s not like we’re talking senior leadership here.
Some of them were taking R&R, some were along the border fence.
When every single person in your country is required to be a soldier when they turn 18, I don’t think suggesting they’re fair game in a situation like what happened in October 7th.
If they’re actively fighting, that’s a different story. But they weren’t. The people sending them to war should be the targets considering they do not have a choice in the matter.
I assume you don’t blame Russian conscripts for the war in Ukraine despite that also involving genocide.
Every death is a tragedy, but combatants are “fair game” in an armed conflict. This does not mean to “blame” them for what brought them there.
And for the Russian conscripts i will still not count them as civilians killed, even though they are also on the short end of Putins madness.
There is a major difference between Russia and Israel though. The Russian conscripts rarely had a chance to escape Russia. Most Israelis have a second or even third nationality. Their families are there by choice, not by lack of options.
It wasn’t an armed conflict until they began it on October 7th.
Whether or not Israel drove them to do it is another issue. I believe that’s what happened. But it doesn’t change the fact that I would not consider conscripts fair game in that situation because the situation itself is not a fair one.
An armed siege and occupation are armed conflicts.
Just because there wasn’t active fighting at a time does not change the fact that at least one side established its position by force. To take the example of Crimea. Just because Russia moved in to occupy it quickly and there was little fighting, it is still an armed conflict. If Russia wouldn’t roam Crimea with its army, it wouldn’t hold control of it. The same is true for the siege of Gaza that Israel upheld before reinvading it.
That is a fact. There was no fighting going on at the time. It was not an armed conflict at the time. Just because they had an armed conflict at times before that doesn’t mean that was what was happening at that time.
India and Pakistan have gone to war multiple times. That doesn’t mean they’re always at war.
Sorry, I replied to you again without realizing you were the person who tried to lie about me being an Israel supporter. My mistake. I won’t reply again after this.
When every single person in your country is required to be a soldier when they turn 18,
Just because the state violently forces people to do awful things that doesn’t absolve the state from being awful. There are many people who resist. I know some. They’ve had to flee the state because the state and the society are so oppressive of decent people. It’s really gross to ignore the sacrifices of these brave people.
That is not fair. “Active duty IDF soldier” is everyone in Israel once they reach a certain age.
It’s completely fair to judge a fascist society by their fascism.
Do we excuse the nazis because many were indoctrinated as nazi youths? No of course not. It might give us some understanding and compassion but it’s a completely fair judgement to say it’s a sick society.
Yes. Technically yes. Anyone with a jewish ancestry can claim aliyah and travel to israel. You can’t host so many people without replacing existing ones. It’s the 21st century. Everyone knows how israel came into existence and what they are doing now. So yeah.
Yes. Technically yes. Anyone with a jewish ancestry can claim aliyah and travel to israel. You can’t host so many people without replacing existing ones. It’s the 21st century. Everyone knows how israel came into existence and what they are doing now. So yeah.
What may be obvious to you may not be obvious to others.
And, just so we’re on the same page, a Jew can be Israeli if they wish to be, but that does not say anything about that Jew’s support or condemnation of Israel.
Resistance by Palestine is valid in any form given it’s position. Whatever worthless criticism you may have of the means of Palestinian resistance should be blamed on the Israeli regime for forcing them to this point.
The oppressed do not have the luxury of precise and swift strikes against their oppressors. We do not get to judge the systematically and brutally disadvantaged Palestine and it’s resistance not being able to capture the core government out from behind one of the most advanced militaries on the planet (backed by one of the others).
All resistance on their part is justified. And insofar as any of those deaths may have been regrettable, they should be held against the settler-colonial regime for forcing this situation into existence.
Israel’s violence against Palestine is enormously unequal, disgustingly normalized, and systematically devastating. This has been going on for decades. To sit there and finger wag them fighting back is arrogant and frankly further enabling the situation. “Oh you deserve liberation and justice but only if you do it the right and proper way!” As if they can face such an overwhelmingly unfair fight as equals.
Palestinian violence is but a reflection of Israeli violence and all fault and consequences from it lay unequivocally at the feet of Israel.
Resistance by Palestine is valid in any form given it’s position.
In any form? So if some Palestinian person went through a maternity ward stomping on babies’ heads as a form of resistance, you’d be okay with that? Really?
That would hardly be different than genocidal war crimes done to Palestinians by the IDF.
Palestinians would almost certainly never make it to the hospital before being gunned down, whereas Israel can march in an army to perpetuate such atrocities with relative ease.
But sure, if such a thing happened you’d not find me condemning it. Israeli colonialism and genocide would be to blame for it. If Israeli violence stopped, so too would Palestinian violence. Israel has the power here unfortunately.
You do realize that, based on what you’ve said so far, you’re also saying that an acceptable resistance to genocide is genocide. I hope you realize that anyway.
That’s absolutely absurd. If Palestine was capable of inflicting genocide upon its oppressors, they’d not be in this situation to begin with. Can we talk about reality here?
But it doesn’t. If they started a genocide against Israel, they’d no longer be the oppressed but the oppressors. And therefore they’d have no “resistance” to justify such a thing.
In any case Palestine doing a 180⁰ and becoming the genociders is a ridiculous line of thought with no purpose.
Killing every Israeli to stop genocide is not resisting the genocide?
Sounds like resistance to me.
And this is what you said:
Resistance by Palestine is valid in any form given it’s position.
It’s not my fault that you made an absolutist statement. It’s yours. In any form includes genocide.
(Also, killing every baby in a maternity ward, whether you stomp them to death or not, is also a genocidal act. You already said you wouldn’t condemn that.)
Bro, with that attitude “everything is justified against Israel”, it’s guaranteed that the conflict will still exist in 100 years. That’s the right attitude to get as many people as possible killed there.
The regime was not attacked on October 7th. Those were innocent people that were taken hostage.
It in no way justifies Israel’s genocide or the apartheid that happened before it, but you’re acting like the hostages were running the government until October 7th.
About one third of the Israelis killed and taken hostage on October 7 were active duty IDF soldiers. That doesn’t excuse the terrorist attacks on Civilians but it is important to point out that Israel has a much worse combatant to civilians killed ratio than Hamas or Hezbollah.
That is not fair. “Active duty IDF soldier” is everyone in Israel once they reach a certain age. Even the ultra-orthodox are no longer exempt.
You’re talking about 18-year-olds who were conscripted taking some R&R to go to a music festival.
Again, this doesn’t excuse anything that has happened subsequently or anything Israel did before either, but it’s not like we’re talking senior leadership here.
Soldiers in military bases along the border fence are not taking some R&R going to a music festival.
And if they are armed at the border of a region they siege, being 18 years old is not an excuse not to be considered a soldier.
Some of them were taking R&R, some were along the border fence.
When every single person in your country is required to be a soldier when they turn 18, I don’t think suggesting they’re fair game in a situation like what happened in October 7th.
If they’re actively fighting, that’s a different story. But they weren’t. The people sending them to war should be the targets considering they do not have a choice in the matter.
I assume you don’t blame Russian conscripts for the war in Ukraine despite that also involving genocide.
Every death is a tragedy, but combatants are “fair game” in an armed conflict. This does not mean to “blame” them for what brought them there.
And for the Russian conscripts i will still not count them as civilians killed, even though they are also on the short end of Putins madness.
There is a major difference between Russia and Israel though. The Russian conscripts rarely had a chance to escape Russia. Most Israelis have a second or even third nationality. Their families are there by choice, not by lack of options.
It wasn’t an armed conflict until they began it on October 7th.
Whether or not Israel drove them to do it is another issue. I believe that’s what happened. But it doesn’t change the fact that I would not consider conscripts fair game in that situation because the situation itself is not a fair one.
An armed siege and occupation are armed conflicts.
Just because there wasn’t active fighting at a time does not change the fact that at least one side established its position by force. To take the example of Crimea. Just because Russia moved in to occupy it quickly and there was little fighting, it is still an armed conflict. If Russia wouldn’t roam Crimea with its army, it wouldn’t hold control of it. The same is true for the siege of Gaza that Israel upheld before reinvading it.
Of course there was armed conflict or do you think the apartheid and blockade of Gaza was enforced with bubblegum and rainbows?
Did you even read what I wrote?
Gross.
That is a fact. There was no fighting going on at the time. It was not an armed conflict at the time. Just because they had an armed conflict at times before that doesn’t mean that was what was happening at that time.
India and Pakistan have gone to war multiple times. That doesn’t mean they’re always at war.
Sorry, I replied to you again without realizing you were the person who tried to lie about me being an Israel supporter. My mistake. I won’t reply again after this.
Just because the state violently forces people to do awful things that doesn’t absolve the state from being awful. There are many people who resist. I know some. They’ve had to flee the state because the state and the society are so oppressive of decent people. It’s really gross to ignore the sacrifices of these brave people.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/27/who-are-the-israeli-refuseniks-picking-jail-over-the-gaza-war
I have made it clear again and again that Israel as a state is not absolved.
Now you are dishonestly implying that I have not.
I see no reason to continue a conversation with someone who makes such a disgusting implication of me.
Sure, the zio regime is to blame but its loyal servants are pure as snow. Whatever.
It’s completely fair to judge a fascist society by their fascism.
Do we excuse the nazis because many were indoctrinated as nazi youths? No of course not. It might give us some understanding and compassion but it’s a completely fair judgement to say it’s a sick society.
How do you know they have been indoctrinated?
That’s like saying Vietnam vets supported that war.
The ones that didn’t fled the government under penalty of persecution. Honestly brave and an example to aspire to.
Not everyone is that brave. Nor should we expect everyone to be willing to abandon their families.
If someone kills your family and steals your house, is it terrorism to take it back?
Were the people they killed and kidnapped the ones who killed their family and stole their house?
Yes. Technically yes. Anyone with a jewish ancestry can claim aliyah and travel to israel. You can’t host so many people without replacing existing ones. It’s the 21st century. Everyone knows how israel came into existence and what they are doing now. So yeah.
Are you claiming Jew = Israeli? Because that would be both a lie and very bigoted of you.
So you should probably clarify that to me now what with it being a violation of rule 4 if that’s what you meant.
Are you replying to the correct comment?
Yes I am. You said this:
Please answer the question. Does Jew = Israeli?
Should I assume the answer is yes?
Obviously not. But can they be, obviously yes. How hard is reading comprehension?
If it were obvious, I would not have asked you.
What may be obvious to you may not be obvious to others.
And, just so we’re on the same page, a Jew can be Israeli if they wish to be, but that does not say anything about that Jew’s support or condemnation of Israel.
Let me just redirect your whole comment back to:
The oppressed do not have the luxury of precise and swift strikes against their oppressors. We do not get to judge the systematically and brutally disadvantaged Palestine and it’s resistance not being able to capture the core government out from behind one of the most advanced militaries on the planet (backed by one of the others).
All resistance on their part is justified. And insofar as any of those deaths may have been regrettable, they should be held against the settler-colonial regime for forcing this situation into existence.
Israel’s violence against Palestine is enormously unequal, disgustingly normalized, and systematically devastating. This has been going on for decades. To sit there and finger wag them fighting back is arrogant and frankly further enabling the situation. “Oh you deserve liberation and justice but only if you do it the right and proper way!” As if they can face such an overwhelmingly unfair fight as equals.
Palestinian violence is but a reflection of Israeli violence and all fault and consequences from it lay unequivocally at the feet of Israel.
In any form? So if some Palestinian person went through a maternity ward stomping on babies’ heads as a form of resistance, you’d be okay with that? Really?
That would hardly be different than genocidal war crimes done to Palestinians by the IDF.
Palestinians would almost certainly never make it to the hospital before being gunned down, whereas Israel can march in an army to perpetuate such atrocities with relative ease.
But sure, if such a thing happened you’d not find me condemning it. Israeli colonialism and genocide would be to blame for it. If Israeli violence stopped, so too would Palestinian violence. Israel has the power here unfortunately.
You do realize that, based on what you’ve said so far, you’re also saying that an acceptable resistance to genocide is genocide. I hope you realize that anyway.
That’s absolutely absurd. If Palestine was capable of inflicting genocide upon its oppressors, they’d not be in this situation to begin with. Can we talk about reality here?
I can’t help where your logic leads.
But it doesn’t. If they started a genocide against Israel, they’d no longer be the oppressed but the oppressors. And therefore they’d have no “resistance” to justify such a thing.
In any case Palestine doing a 180⁰ and becoming the genociders is a ridiculous line of thought with no purpose.
Killing every Israeli to stop genocide is not resisting the genocide?
Sounds like resistance to me.
And this is what you said:
It’s not my fault that you made an absolutist statement. It’s yours. In any form includes genocide.
(Also, killing every baby in a maternity ward, whether you stomp them to death or not, is also a genocidal act. You already said you wouldn’t condemn that.)
Bro, with that attitude “everything is justified against Israel”, it’s guaranteed that the conflict will still exist in 100 years. That’s the right attitude to get as many people as possible killed there.