• Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    They’re not doing their supporters any favours with these sort of comments lol

      • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Which supporters?

        People supporting the Palestinian side in this conflict

        • Five@slrpnk.net
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          1 year ago

          Don’t confuse support for Palestinians as support for Hamas.

            • jabjoe@feddit.uk
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              1 year ago

              It’s deliberate. If you don’t support Israel’s apartheid of Palestine, you are apparently antisemitic and want Israel destroyed.

              Hamas is not helping things. They are bunch of murderous religious nutters. They do want Israel gone. Just like how Israel’s nutters want Palestine gone.

              But Hamas are not Palestine anymore than Israel is its religious nutters.

        • 0ryX@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          The only issue I see are the dumbasses that cant tell the difference, supporting Palestinians doesn’t mean support for Hamas. But if you don’t think they need some sort of military support in one way or another you don’t need to be making comments about it and need to instead go back and read a little history about the Israelie Occupation and Crimes Against Humanity thats taken place. Hell you wouldn’t even have to go back in time very far but a year maybe less, but I suggest to get the full picture and decent understanding to allow yourself to come and discuss world topics with other adults that you start from the beginning.

    • guacupado@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      They shouldn’t have any fucking supporters. This is the shit all the anti-Israel people are supporting. I’m no fan of Netanyahu but wtf do they expect Israel to do? It’s like everyone forgot what prompted this and thinks Israel just woke up one morning and decided to raze everything because they were bored.

      • Mrkawfee@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        What prompted this? You mean the decades of occupation? Or are you suggesting history only began with the Hamas attack?

    • TooManyGames@sopuli.xyz
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      1 year ago

      Not to condone their actions, but what would Hamas care about getting supporters? Palestine situation hasn’t been helped much at all by international supporters, so it’s not like they care about that.

      • mwguy@infosec.pub
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        1 year ago

        Palestine is dependent on foreign aid to continue its war fighting. Specifically aid from western nations. They need supporters to feed, fuel and supply it’s military and populace.

  • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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    1 year ago

    Well I’ve done some maths, and I’m pretty sure the IDF can kill the population of Gaza faster than Hamas can kill the population of Israel.

    • UnspecificGravity@discuss.tchncs.de
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      1 year ago

      That’s exactly what Hamas wants to see because that’s what gets Israeli to lose international support and prompts Arab nations to invade.

      They don’t give a shit about the Palestinian people.

      • jet@hackertalks.com
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        1 year ago

        Nobody is going to invade for humanitarian reasons. That only happens for very weak nations that have no international support.

        The government of Israel has amazing international support, first class weaponry, outclassing all of its neighbors militaries by orders of magnitude, and a ambiguous nuclear strike capability.

        They could literally take every one of their oppressed civilians, drop them into a vat of acid, live streaming on the internet indefinitely, and nobody’s going to invade.

        Give countries something to fight over, some material resource, and there will be a war, water, energy, access to trade, but humanitarian philosophies are things few people are willing to die for.

          • jet@hackertalks.com
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            1 year ago

            You said That’s exactly what Hamas wants to see because that’s what gets Israeli to lose international support and prompts Arab nations to invade.

            I had assumed your Arab nation invasion was due to the death of Palestinian civilians. In your scenario why are the Arab nations invading?

            • UnspecificGravity@discuss.tchncs.de
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              1 year ago

              Because from their perspective someone invaded their land and is now vulnerable to getting kicked off it. The only reason Israel exists is because it’s supported by the US and Europe. Take away that support and Israel goes away.

              The intended result for Hamas is for Israel to respond with actions that erode the very support that they depend on for security against invasion from surrounding arab nations that don’t need any new reasons to attack Israel apart from the very existence of Israel in the first place.

  • SirToxicAvenger@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    A senior member of Hamas has hailed the systematic slaughter of civilians in Israel

    When asked whether this meant the complete annihilation of Israel, Hamas replied: “Yes, of course.”

    who still thinks hamas are the good guys?

    • MudMan@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      If you’re coming to any international conflict, but specially to this one, from a “good guys/bad guys” framework you’re absolutely not helping.

      Sometimes (a lot of times, sadly) all you get in a particular issue is just assholes all the way down. Unsurprisingly, deadly military conflicts where both sides have proven at best a callous disregard for civilian casualties practically requires the asshole pile to be expansive and thorough.

      The question is how you get the endless, writhing mass of assholes to stop. Which isn’t looking great right now.

    • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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      1 year ago

      Who still thinks any state is the good guys? Hamas and Israel are both enemies of the people.

      The only way to cut through the propagandistic lies of these groups is to point out that neither truly represents the people they say they do.

      • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
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        1 year ago

        Hamas and Israel are both enemies of the people.

        Uhmm. Are you aware that Israel is #4 on the World Happiness Index this year? It’s the happiest non-scandinavic country in the world. You don’t get there by being “enemy of the people”.

        Here are the rankings of Israel’s neighbors:

        • Egypt #121
        • Jordan #123
        • Lebanon #136 (second worst of all measured)
        • State of Palestine #99

        Israel is obviously not the problem in that area.

        • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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          1 year ago

          Wow, extremely wealthy country propped up by imperialism has a high happiness rating compared to extremely poor countries being stomped on by that same imperial war machine.

          Surely the poor countries are the problem.

          • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
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            1 year ago

            You must understand that you cannot explain it away like that. Palestine perhaps you might, but funnily enough, it’s the happiest country of those four.

            • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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              1 year ago

              Why not? Literally just give any explanation. You didn’t even try to explain in your first comment how “happiness” has anything to do with this.

              • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
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                1 year ago

                Why not? Literally just give any explanation.

                Egypt’s, Jordan’s and Lebanon’s bad standings in the happiness scale cannot in any way be explained away by Israel. Just because you lost several wars against an enemy several decades ago isn’t enough to explain any of it. So it’s all on them. As I said, Palestine’s bad situation might be explained by Israel, but again, it’s the happiest of those four.

                You didn’t even try to explain in your first comment how “happiness” has anything to do with this.

                You said that both Hamas and Israel are the enemies of the people. I disproved that notion by noting how Israel is #4 happiest country in the world. My apologies, I thought the inference was obvious.

        • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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          1 year ago

          And? You’re allowed to say what you mean, you know.

          Where do the civilians being bombed fall on your spectrum of evil? Do they somehow deserve it in your eyes?

          • rastilin@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            Ok, I have to ask. How would you apply this to any other conflict. For example the Allies fighting against Germany. Where did the German civilians fall in the spectrum of evil. Was fighting Germany justified, knowing that German civilians might suffer? If so, how is this situation different?

            • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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              1 year ago

              Strategic bombing - ie, the indiscriminate bombing of populated areas - was ineffective and immoral, and people at the time condemned it as such, and they were right to do so. It was also wrong to use Japanese cities as testbeds for nuclear arms. There was no real strategic reason to do it.

              So like… don’t do that? Maybe Israel shouldn’t do that, because fucking obviously?

              Like yes, there were bad states on the allied side in WWII as well. You can see that in how they conducted themselves after the war was over, and at many points before that. In fact the policies of the Nazis were directly inspired by US genocides.

              You’re not going to trip me up by bringing up the Nazis. I said states are the enemy of the people, and I meant it.

              None of what I said should be construed as support for the fascist axis powers, that should just be obvious, but I’m sure I have to say it, because people are just going to try it on.

      • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        Difference is, Israel isn’t meant to represent palestinian people, Hamas is. And they are doing a great job of it, if their job is getting civilians killed.

        Edit: Just think about the massive protests against Netanyahu earlier in the year. Do those show how in tune the Israeli government and people are? No. But the very fact they could protest mostly peacefully differentiates Israel’s treatment of its population from all of its neighbours.

        • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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          1 year ago

          The… what? I have no idea what you’re even trying to say.

          The IDF is still dropping bombs on civilians. You can invent whatever bullshit you feel like, it doesn’t make that somehow okay.

              • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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                1 year ago

                Doesn’t change the fact that in this conflict, the IDF are trying to get Hamas targets with their attacks. And that the Hamas are the ones that built their infrastructure next to civilians, that Hamas did kill Israeli civilians indiscriminately and that the Hamas knew full well, that by building their infrastructure next to civilians and by mindlessly raiding Israeli territory, the IDF would respond and kill palestinian civilians while doing so. Israel wants to crush Hamas. Hamas wants as many people to die as possible, so that Israel is made a pariah internationally.

                • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Right… so it’s so predictable that the IDF would bomb civilians that any provocation makes the provoker guilty of their murders?

                  So basically the IDF are so irredeemable in your eyes they’re just a force of nature or something?

                  Again, you’re also ignoring the fact that Israel created Hamas.

                  And Israel SHOULD be a pariah. The only reason they’ve gotten away with this genocide for so long is because they’ve had unconditional US state backing.

              • Scrof@sopuli.xyz
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                1 year ago

                It makes sense because it doesn’t violate Geneva conventions. If there are combatants hiding among civilians their deaths are 100% on said combatants. What do you expect Israel to do? After a terrorist attack that is equal to 17 (!) times the scope of 9/11 just to shrug it off and send more humanitarian aid to be pillaged by Hamas?

                • anteaters@feddit.de
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                  1 year ago

                  100%. People here scream “genocide” and “war crimes” but have no idea what these words mean. The “friends” of Palestine here make even Reddit look normal.

    • fer0n@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      I made the mistake of commenting on this post where people clearly think that the Hamas are the good guys and have every right to do what they do. Apologies for linking to it.

      • TheDankHold@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Of course if you go to tankie central you get tankies. They’re also acting like Putin didn’t order the shelling and capture of Ukrainian cities and it’s all just (insert kremlin talking point here).

        They are a specific niche of political mind. The kind that only thinks western nations are capable of propaganda and evil. Don’t take them as representative of smarter people.

    • Akasazh@feddit.nl
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      1 year ago

      Tactically their October 7 attack was incredibly silly, honestly what did they think would happen?

      They gave Netanyahu, who was finally fumbling at the reigns after almost thirty years aan excuse to execute his wet dreams and all of Israel uniting behind him.

      I see no way how they could have thought the attack would benefit their cause.

      • jet@hackertalks.com
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        1 year ago

        To answer the question, what they think would happen: Their October 7th attacked achieved everything they wanted.

        KSA and Israel we’re coming to an understanding and treaty, that was against the interests of Iran who is in a power struggle with the KSA.

        After their attack, it is now politically impossible for the KSA and Israel to have a treaty. That alone justifies this entire conflict from their power politics perspective

        They never had any hope of inflicting damage on the Israeli government. They clearly don’t care about their own civilian casualties. In fact The worst the reprisals the better for their recruitment and funding efforts.

        Probably not directly related to the rationale for their attack, but it got them some ancillary support, it removed Russia’s aggression from the news media cycle. Which probably got them some favor in those circles.

        From a media perspective, this has been a massive Boone for their campaign. They more or less had disappeared from international headlines for the last 10 years. Now everybody is talking about the genocide, and the ethnic cleansing. They’re going to pay very dearly for it, but that’s more media attention than they’ve had for a decade.

        • Akasazh@feddit.nl
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          1 year ago

          Ok yes I can follow that. The cynical thing is that in none of the reasons the Palestinian people are central. Those are victimized by both the Israelis and Hamas, following this rationale.

          An extra cynical level is that the wished of the extreme right Israelis and Hamas are the same. To keep this war going indefinitely, not matter the cost of human life.

          In what kind of setting would this be proposed? ‘listen we might invite genocidal terror on our own people, but Russia needs some radio silence and we crave media attention’ and everyone involved going like ‘that’s absolutely worth it brother’.

          Maybe I’m too naive, I cannot see the tactical gain in that perspective. Thanks though, for good counter points. It helps me trying to make some kind of sense of this.

            • Akasazh@feddit.nl
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              1 year ago

              Yeah I know Machiavelli, I don’t remember suicidal tactics, though, and certainly not playing according to ones worst enemies playbook.

              But mass media wasn’t around in the Renaissance…

              • jet@hackertalks.com
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                1 year ago

                The whole philosophy is how to get the outcomes you want, any means are justified.

                Saying person X is playing into person Ys playbook is making huge assumptions about their goals.

                We can only infer and guess as to the organizational goals at play. We can line up the incentives for their actions, as I did two posts up, and say their behavior is consistent with these incentives.

                • Akasazh@feddit.nl
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                  1 year ago

                  We can only infer and guess as to the organizational goals at play. We can line up the incentives for their actions, as I did two posts up, and say their behavior is consistent with these incentives.

                  And I thank you for that exposition, however cynical it does give some reason to what appears madness.

                  But if it comes to serving the people of Palestine they aren’t really doing that, rather the opposite.

      • rastilin@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        My impression is that at least half of fediverse.

        I got that impression too, and the fediverse has lost a lot of its shine recently. People are rushing to say that they support “both sides” and Israel can defend itself… but just not in any way that would be able to stop another attack like October’s from happening. It feels like a lot of people just want to side with Hamas, but don’t want to actually say that out loud.

        • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          It’s been a very eye-opening experience over the past month to see just how little the left cares about victims of violence if they happen to be Jewish.

    • AnonTwo@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      Nobody said they were.

      edit: okay crazy people on a lemmygrad site said they were. But that page that guy linked looked about as nice as a 4chan site…

      • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
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        1 year ago

        Somebody told me recently on here that “Hamas is facing a genocide” apparently without any sort of irony or remorse.

    • HelixDab2@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      Hamas killed 1400 civilians.

      The IDF has killed about 9500 civilians so far.

      I dunno, I think that Hamas may not be the good guys, but they’re definitely the less bad guys.

    • jet@hackertalks.com
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      1 year ago

      To be fair, and I realize it’s difficult to be fair here:

      The Israeli government has said it is going for the total destruction of Hamas. Hamas has said it is going for the total destruction of the Israeli government… They’ve taken up equivalent positions

      I think what that really means, is both belligerents are going to try the radical new policy of killing more random civilians, and seeing if anything changes…

    • rastilin@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      So, just to be clear, you’re saying that the attack against Israel was actually a secret Jewish conspiracy to make Hamas look bad?